How good can you get at golf with a fundamentally bad swing?

[clearwaterms]

Originally Posted by TN94z

I got down to a 5 or better with a not so good swing.  I was consistently shooting mid to high 70s.  But I've always had a really good feel with my short game and putting has always been one of my stronger areas, so I got away with a lot of bad shots.  Even with a bad swing, you can get consistent as long as you know what your ball is going to do.  I always had the same misses which meant I could plan my way around the course and still shoot descent even though watching my swing on camera was painful.

The biggest problem I found with this is when I started trying to play in State tournaments.  In my opinion, this is when the bad swing will start falling apart....or at least for me.  Once there is a lot of pressure on you, the bad fundamentals will start showing you why they are bad fundamentals.

Thank you for the insight.  Here is a follow up question.  Were you able to repair those fundamentals without having to get worse than mid to high 70's?

In other words, were the fundamentals so bad that your handicap had to go up before you saw the fruit of your work and it went back down or even better lower than before?

[dak4n6]

I easily have the 'prettiest' swing in the group of guys that regularly beat me and take my money (actually we all beat each other up). Our group ranges from 5 to 12 or so. Some swings are short with quick accelertation, some a bit OTT, some with a big loop, but they all make good, consistent contact and employ at least a couple of the 5SKs. I always say you don't put style points on the score card.

[smellysell]

Depends on the definition of what a fundamentally flawed swing is I suppose. Seems to me Furyk would fit the definition and has done pretty well for himself?

[WUTiger]

When I was in my a early 40s, I got lessons and a fitting from a guy down in the Dallas area. I can almost hear his voice:

"If you can hit 400 balls a day, you can pretty well swing any way you want. But, if you have other things your life, like a job, you need some good fundamentals if you're ever going to play well."

Fast forward: if you have a consistent flaw, such as an out-to-in "slice"swing, you can use stance and equipment to help cover the flaw. But, if you have a swing that's just plain unstable, golf is always going to be more adventurous than you would like it to be.

[TN94z]

Thank you for the insight.  Here is a follow up question.  Were you able to repair those fundamentals without having to get worse than mid to high 70's?  In other words, were the fundamentals so bad that your handicap had to go up before you saw the fruit of your work and it went back down or even better lower than before?

Well, when you start incorporating changes in your swing, most of the time things will get worse before they get better...I guess this also depends on how drastic the changes. So to answer your question, yes it went up. But the things I am working on will make for a swing that is much easier to repeat, much more predictable, and much easier to control. These things will lead to more consistent/lower scores than before and a swing that will hold up under pressure. It's a process and really just comes down to the results each individual wants to achieve.

[clearwaterms]

Originally Posted by TN94z

Well, when you start incorporating changes in your swing, most of the time things will get worse before they get better...I guess this also depends on how drastic the changes.

So to answer your question, yes it went up. But the things I am working on will make for a swing that is much easier to repeat, much more predictable, and much easier to control. These things will lead to more consistent/lower scores than before and a swing that will hold up under pressure. It's a process and really just comes down to the results each individual wants to achieve.

Originally Posted by Dale Carnegie

Success is getting what you want;

happiness is wanting what you get.

So bear with me as I apply some existential logic.

So here is the next follow up question for everybody.  It seems the general consciences is that if you practice, and you work with what you have it is reasonable to assume you can be a "better than average" golfer.

If most people play this game to enjoy the experience as a hobby; why not embrace what you have, learn to maximize your game within your ability, and enjoy the experience.

Doesn't the constant struggle of attempting to get better cause grief, self doubt, and ultimately frustration?  Is that frustration worth it in the end?

What I mean is that, if the average amateur golfer will still score around 100 ( citation ), why do we continue to spend, time, effort, and resources to continually get better.  If you apply the Dale Carnegie quote that I posted above, one would deduce that you would be happier in the end just playing within your own ability and enjoying the experience.

I will admit that TST members are a different group, we have a higher passion for the game; as evidenced by the fact that we spend non-golf time talking about golf on the internet.  I suspect that will make the responses to my question different than if I were to ask golfers on a municipal golf course on a Saturday morning.

[TN94z]

So bear with me as I apply some existential logic.  So here is the next follow up question for everybody.  It seems the general consciences is that if you practice, and you work with what you have it is reasonable to assume you can be a "better than average" golfer.  If most people play this game to enjoy the experience as a hobby; why not embrace what you have, learn to maximize your game within your ability, and enjoy the experience.  Doesn't the constant struggle of attempting to get better cause grief, self doubt, and ultimately frustration?  Is that frustration worth it in the end?    What I mean is that, if the average amateur golfer will still score around 100 ([URL=http://golftips.golfsmith.com/average-golf-score-1916.html]citation[/URL]), why do we continue to spend, time, effort, and resources to continually get better.  If you apply the Dale Carnegie quote that I posted above, one would deduce that you would be happier in the end just playing within your own ability and enjoying the experience.  I will admit that TST members are a different group, we have a higher passion for the game; as evidenced by the fact that we spend non-golf time talking about golf on the internet.  I suspect that will make the responses to my question different than if I were to ask golfers on a municipal golf course on a Saturday morning.

It differs from person to person. Many golfers, like myself, get enjoyment out of getting better and working towards a goal of scratch for instance. Many golfers are happy just being out there hitting the ball regardless of their score or skill level. It's up to each person to figure out which type they are. I wouldn't say that it's grief but can be frustrating at times. But when you have high expectations like getting to a higher level, you accept that there will be frustrations along the road to getting to your goal. When something is based so heavily on the individual, you can't make a broad statement to try and encompass all participants.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by clearwaterms

If most people play this game to enjoy the experience as a hobby; why not embrace what you have, learn to maximize your game within your ability, and enjoy the experience.

Doesn't the constant struggle of attempting to get better cause grief, self doubt, and ultimately frustration?  Is that frustration worth it in the end?

I don't really see the distinction between "maximising your game within your ability" and any other attempts to improve.

I understand why some people see "swing changes" as some sort of short term pain for long term gain. But I think that's probably because they've either been to a pro who does the one swing fits all rubbish, or tried tips off the internet which often leads to people working on the wrong thing.

There's no reason why you can't keep enjoying your golf while working to improve. You just need to be working on the right thing, and not too much at once. Sure you'll have really bad days but we all do that regardless of whether or not we're working on something.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by MacDutch

Big John looks like someone I played with a couple of years ago

I played for the first time in Florida and when I showed up the next time, he said "up for some digging again Frank?'

Difficult to say, but can't be to consistent both. I'd say Big John a 20 and the other guy a 14?

I never got around to answering the question. John is around scratch but I don't know the exact number right now. He is inconsistent but when he's on he can overpower a golf course and really go low. Great short game and monster drives that he gets in the fairway. I've known him for 9 years and played many rounds with him and if he ever had a round above 75 I don't know about it. One of the most competitive players around here.

Mike (the other guy, and my son) doesn't go really low as often as John but is more consistent and has no weakness in his game. Almost never misses a fairway or a green and is a great putter and chipper. His current HC is +1.5. He's planning on trying his luck in a US Open qualifier this year.

Looking at swings can't tell how far somebody is hitting the ball, how many fairways and greens they are hitting, how good the short game is, and how much pride they take in winning.

[RetroJFrancisco]

Ive gotten to scratch with a swing with a pretty bad tempo and inconsistent temp (back up to 0.5 now from a back injury), ive been working on it this year to improve my tempo, otherwise my short game/wedges will get me out of any strife whatsoever.

[bjwestner]

I was watching the Haney Project the other night and it was the most recent episode.  Phelps was in China and was getting instruction from Haney when Ronaldo came and talked to Phelps.  Later on Phelps asked Haney that he heard that Ronaldo who apparently has an ugly golf swing was actually a 6 hc at one point.  Haney pointed out that anyone can get down to a certain level with an ugly swing but that with that swing he probably cannot get much better.

What I got from the comment is that even with a bad swing, if you can do it consistently enough to hit the ball solidly, you can improve quite a bit.  The "ceiling" for someone with a bad swing versus someone with good swing mechanics is the difference.  Thus I would say that depending on the swing one can get very good with a bad swing, but only to a certain point.

My Uncle is 73 years old and has had his right knee replaced twice.  His swing is not that pretty.  He's been playing golf forever though and is so consistent that he is still right around a 10 hc.  My swing has more "upside" than his but since I am not as consistent and have not played as long, I am several shots away from his hc.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by bjwestner

I was watching the Haney Project the other night and it was the most recent episode.  Phelps was in China and was getting instruction from Haney when Ronaldo came and talked to Phelps.  Later on Phelps asked Haney that he heard that Ronaldo who apparently has an ugly golf swing was actually a 6 hc at one point.  Haney pointed out that anyone can get down to a certain level with an ugly swing but that with that swing he probably cannot get much better.

All due respect to Haney but asking a swing coach if you can play well with a bad swing is like asking a mechanic if you need a tune up on your car.

I don't know anybody that would think this is a good swing and he was playing at Doral last week.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k83QMw4TCto

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MS256

I don't know anybody that would think this is a good swing and he was playing at Doral last week.

I think it's a good swing. Why wouldn't it be? Because it looks unusual?

[clearwaterms]

Originally Posted by iacas

I think it's a good swing. Why wouldn't it be? Because it looks unusual?

Erik,

Can you define a bad swing in your mind?  I realize that its a grey area question.  But when you read the title of this thread, I hope it gave you a vison, or recollection of a bad swing and you thought, man that is a terrible swing and yet that person plays single digit golf.

To me: a bad swing is somebody who has to make more than subtle adjustments to be able to play.

The person who's grip is so strong you can see the person's palm at address is one example that I think of as a fundamentally bad swing.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by iacas

I think it's a good swing. Why wouldn't it be? Because it looks unusual?

For the same reason mine is not "a good swing". Too many things considered technically wrong.

Doesn't mean he can't hit the ball any more than my bad swing means I can't hit the ball.

Or the swings of Mike and John that I posted on this thread and were guessed at a 20 and 14 HC (and why I picked their swings) can't actually be around scratch and a +1.5 (which they actually are).

[iacas]

Originally Posted by clearwaterms

Can you define a bad swing in your mind?

A swing which prevents the golfer from applying the clubhead to the ball consistently and properly with a sufficient speed.

Originally Posted by clearwaterms

To me: a bad swing is somebody who has to make more than subtle adjustments to be able to play.

So is Jim Furyk's swing a bad swing: He has to make compensations or adjustments for his backswing and on into his downswing even.

I would say it is not. He achieves all 5 Simple Keys®.

Originally Posted by clearwaterms

The person who's grip is so strong you can see the person's palm at address is one example that I think of as a fundamentally bad swing.

When do you ever see someone's palm at address? Here's Paul Azinger's grip: you can't see either palm here...

You know there's a guy on the Web.com Tour playing cross-handed, right? Is his golf swing "fundamentally bad"? No. It's unique.

Originally Posted by MS256

For the same reason mine is not "a good swing". Too many things considered technically wrong.

What's "technically wrong" in his swing?

The problem with this way of thinking is that to me a "technically wrong" thing is something which prevents the golfer from applying the clubhead to the ball consistently and properly with a sufficient speed (per my definition above).

That swing has all 5 Simple Keys®, and thus, is not "technically wrong."

---

I think a lot of you are confusing "unusual" or "funny looking" with "a bad swing."

A bad swing has bad mechanics. Bad mechanics prevent you from consistently striking the ball solidly and with speed.

[MS256]

---

I think a lot of you are confusing "unusual" or "funny looking" with "a bad swing."

A bad swing has bad mechanics. Bad mechanics prevent you from consistently striking the ball solidly and with speed.

That's the whole point of every comment I made on this thread and why it's hard to guess someone's HC by looking at their swing.

We have choose up games with no handicaps and sometimes the only thing to go by in choosing a player is how the guy looks warming up. It's amazing how many times we get it completely wrong.

Last week I asked a guy on our team how well he played. He said "I'm very comfortable from 200 yards and out". I laughed and told him I had never heard that statement before. Then when we started playing I found out he was exactly right. He never missed a single fairway and averaged about 270 yards with a driver and was always right beside the green with his second shots on par fives. He also had absolutely the worst short game I have ever seen. He made one bogey and every other hole was a double bogey or worse.

P.S. Wirachant would be picked as a "C" player in our group based on his swing. What a mistake that would be as he smoked all of us.

[misty_mountainhop]

Originally Posted by clearwaterms

...So this got me thinking, how good can a player get, if they just practice enough and work within the limits of his/her game, how good can somebody get?  Is it possible to be a 10-12 handicapper with a flawed swing or are is every one of these people exaggerating the scores.

Ever see a video of Eamonn Darcy? He had an 'interesting' swing although it can't have been that bad as he was pretty successful:

And:

So, very, very good I guess. Helped that Darcy was a demon putter though I would think...