Getting my weight forward.......WHY

[Chunky]

Originally Posted by logman

Well, I've got a view..... but I want others to maybe put theirs as well. That's OK isn't it?

Ha, Ha Ha, you didn't get to be a 12 handicap with that BS swing philosphy! But good job sounding like a 25 handicapper who refuses to fix an awful swing because they feel comfortable with it. Funny thing is those guys are more comfortable with their swings than their scores! If only they could make the connection.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by logman

Wow in depth guys!. My "knowledge" is based on trial and error, feel, whatever. So I'd been noticing that with this new swing my big failing is falling back. It's kinda easy when the instruction is to keep your head over your rear knee and the body should move forward at impact -but only as a reaction to what the arms are doing. Anyhow I've got the tempo problems under control but I'm amazed that my weigh is passive but it doesn't seem to matter in terms of ball striking or distance. If I go against the teachings of Mr. Kuykendall, and press forward and hit down and finish on my font foot my dispersion goes up, the ball goes lower, shorter......all bad. If I go back to the teachings, that is flat feet, wide stance bugger all weight transfer, head over back knee etc the swing comes back into it own. It led me to question the weight forward idea.

Originally Posted by stoverny

I can tell you that the weight shift is much more difficult, for many more recreational golfers, than most good golfers think.  It is one of those things that can seem easy to someone who can do it, but very difficult for someone who can't.  Perhaps when you golf with some high handicappers at your local muni, you think it they just took lessons, learned the proper pivot and weight shift, they would get better.  I see them and think, if they would just stop fruitlessly trying to shift back and forwards, and started with their weight pre-set back, and let the weight of the swinging clubhead dictate their lower body movements... they would probably start enjoying the game of golf a lot more.

Doing something badly doesn't make it a bad idea, it just means you're doing it badly.

The point isn't just to get 90% of your weight forward in any which way and somehow that's going to make you hit it like a pro. If that's what you're getting out of this then you've completely missed the boat.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by logman

Wow in depth guys!. My "knowledge" is based on trial and error, feel, whatever.

So in other words you don't really know what you're doing.

Originally Posted by Mordan

The point isn't just to get 90% of your weight forward in any which way and somehow that's going to make you hit it like a pro. If that's what you're getting out of this then you've completely missed the boat.

Exactly

[logman]

Originally Posted by mvmac

So in other words you don't really know what you're doing.

Exactly

well, In a way ,yes.. but I love finding out about things in a "self discovery" way. I find those little moves forward a really interesting way to play the great game.

[logman]

Originally Posted by Chunky

Ha, Ha Ha, you didn't get to be a 12 handicap with that BS swing philosphy! But good job sounding like a 25 handicapper who refuses to fix an awful swing because they feel comfortable with it. Funny thing is those guys are more comfortable with their swings than their scores! If only they could make the connection.

Chunky, mate, My last 3 rounds have been a 1 under 31(9holes), a 73 and a 75 (easy course). I'm doing OK.

How you going,pal?

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by stoverny

There is no thought during the tennis swing to "get your weight forward" to generate power.

I 'step into' my shot in tennis.  certainly forward weight transfer.  agree that when it's right, it doesn't take any thought

[stoverny]

Quote:

The point isn't just to get 90% of your weight forward in any which way and somehow that's going to make you hit it like a pro. If that's what you're getting out of this then you've completely missed the boat.

That is not what I've gotten out of this and that's not what I said.  What I said is that the emphasis on the lower body and weight transfer makes the game needlessly difficult because it gets a lot pf players thinking about the swing in the wrong way.  The weight will shift forward on it's own if you forget about it and just swing the club.

Quote:

Doing something badly doesn't make it a bad idea, it just means you're doing it badly.

I am sure you are right, but a better question is why so many players are doing it badly.  I would argue it's because a) it is difficult and/or b) they are thinking too much about it.

Quote:

I 'step into' my shot in tennis.  certainly forward weight transfer.  agree that when it's right, it doesn't take any thought

Right, same as you step into a throw when throwing a baseball, etc.  But you are not thinking about it because the body does it automatically.  I think golf instruction focuses too much on the weight transfer to the detriment of many players who would be better off forgetting about it.

Let's say you had a regular carpenter's hammer, and were trying to hammer a nail straight into a wall, right at the bottom near the floor.  You would unconsciously set your weight to be stable and allow you to swing the hammer as to hit the nail.  There would be weight shift, but nothing conscious.  Same if you had an axe and were chopping down the base of a tree.

The "modern swing" as it is taught nowadays focuses almost exclusively on lower-body rotation and weight shift and I think that has made the game harder not easier for a lot of players.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by stoverny

That is not what I've gotten out of this and that's not what I said.  What I said is that the emphasis on the lower body and weight transfer makes the game needlessly difficult because it gets a lot pf players thinking about the swing in the wrong way.  The weight will shift forward on it's own if you forget about it and just swing the club.

Sorry, but that is false. MANY players will fall back on their back foot while "just swinging the club". In my experience, falling back or not shifting forward is one of (if not THE) biggest thing holding high handicappers back. I started with Manuel De la Torre's method of just swinging the clubhead and while this works for some people, I almost always ended up hanging back and hitting tops/fats/thins or, if I got really lucky, a big a** slice.

SnT was what really got me taking the proper divot and having the proper sequence. I don't consider myself to be purely SnT but it was a HUGE eye opener.

[dak4n6]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

SnT was what really got me taking the proper divot and having the proper sequence. I don't consider myself to be purely SnT but it was a HUGE eye opener.

Same here. Game changing epiphany, except I 'discovered' weight forward before SnT came out.

[stoverny]

Quote:

I started with Manuel De la Torre's method of just swinging the clubhead and while this works for some people, I almost always ended up hanging back and hitting tops/fats/thins or, if I got really lucky, a big a** slice.

Well to quote an earlier poster, "Doing something badly doesn't make it a bad idea, it just means you're doing it badly."

Again I think it is more a matter of different styles work for different people.  Obviously many many people have succeeded using the precepts of De la Torre, Ernest Jones, Knudson, etc.  Many also succeed with SnT, Foley, 5SK, etc...

However I think there is also a faulty tendency to assume that anything that is not the current fashion is "wrong".  Stack and Tilt itself has run into this criticism especially when it first came out.

In my swing I start with the weight back, with the head stable over the rear leg.  I rotate around that stable rear leg and strike the ball with both feet on the ground.  Weight shifts forward AFTER the ball is gone, reacting to the weight of the clubhead.  I get great contact/distance/trajectory.  Is it possible I could hit it even further by incorporating more forward weight shift into the swing?  Yes, but perhaps at the cost of less consistent contact.  I hit the ball flush with this method and my distance is more than adequate.  Just as the founders of SnT would say, I am interested in the swing that gives me the best combination of power and consistency, not just one or the other.

Since my weight is pre-set back, there is no lower body movement going back - just a turning of the shoulders.  This eliminates the tendency to sway or get outside the rear foot on the backswing.  Also helps keep the head steady.  It is just like swinging an axe or hammer.  The legs stabilize the upper body.

I do not think power in the golf swing comes primarily from weight shift or compression of the ball.  It comes from rotation.  That is where club head speed is generated.  You can rotate very fast around a stable rear leg without a big shift of weight forward.

Like I said it works for me.  It may not work for others but that does not make it "wrong".  Lots of players spend their entire golf life trying to master the swing and never get out of the 90s, because they are stuck in a single thought pattern of what is the "correct" way.  It is good to be open-minded.

[Ernest Jones]

Same here. Game changing epiphany, except I 'discovered' weight forward before SnT came out.

Ha, I've been around long enough that I actually remember you posting about that way back when... Something about you seeing the commercial and thinking, "holy crap, that's MY swing!!"

[Ernest Jones]

Well to quote an earlier poster, "Doing something badly doesn't make it a bad idea, it just means you're doing it badly." Again I think it is more a matter of different styles work for different people.  Obviously many many people have succeeded using the precepts of De la Torre, Ernest Jones, Knudson, etc.  Many also succeed with SnT, Foley, 5SK, etc...  However I think there is also a faulty tendency to assume that anything that is not the current fashion is "wrong".  Stack and Tilt itself has run into this criticism especially when it first came out. In my swing I start with the weight back, with the head stable over the rear leg.  I rotate around that stable rear leg and strike the ball with both feet on the ground.  Weight shifts forward AFTER the ball is gone, reacting to the weight of the clubhead.  I get great contact/distance/trajectory.  Is it possible I could hit it even further by incorporating more forward weight shift into the swing?  Yes, but perhaps at the cost of less consistent contact.  I hit the ball flush with this method and my distance is more than adequate.  Just as the founders of SnT would say, I am interested in the swing that gives me the best combination of power and consistency, not just one or the other. Since my weight is pre-set back, there is no lower body movement going back - just a turning of the shoulders.  This eliminates the tendency to sway or get outside the rear foot on the backswing.  Also helps keep the head steady.  It is just like swinging an axe or hammer.  The legs stabilize the upper body. I do not think power in the golf swing comes primarily from weight shift or compression of the ball.  It comes from rotation.  That is where club head speed is generated.  You can rotate very fast around a stable rear leg without a big shift of weight forward. Like I said it works for me.  It may not work for others but that does not make it "wrong".  Lots of players spend their entire golf life trying to master the swing and never get out of the 90s, because they are stuck in a single thought pattern of what is the "correct" way.  It is good to be open-minded.

I never said there was only ONE right way. I only said that it was false to state that the weight will shift correctly all by itself if you just swing the club as this is clearly not the case with many players. In my case it required a STRONG focus on my weight shift to get it to happen more or less correctly, I don't need to focus so much on it now as it has become ingrained to a certain degree although I still do drills occasionally to reinforce and improve on it. And, yes, clearly many people have had tremendous success with Ernest Jones and other STC methods but it is not a one size fits all miracle.

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by stoverny

The weight will shift forward on it's own if you forget about it and just swing the club.

I'll disagree on this point only, but I get what you are saying.  I don't assume that just my experience will translate to everyone else.

I also think that a good instructor won't teach weight transfer if they observe their student is already doing it well.

Short answer - if you are doing it already.  Don't sweat it.

If you aren't (Honestly, I a LOT more new and poor players with reverse weight transfer than I see them doing it right 'naturally'), then it's an area of improvement to work on.

My personal experience (YMMV)...it did needed to be pointed out to me, but just a little bit - but still, I'm basing my comment on what I see in general, not just my personal experiece.

others might need no input on it (as you note)

some might need a little coaching (like me)

others might need a LOT of coaching (everyone is different)

I'd like experienced instructors to maybe sort out those three options with percentages of what they actually observe....but it might be biased, though, in that those that seek instruction are more likely to have poor weight transfer issues

I can't take your comment as a blanket statement for everyone.  Not anymore than I can take a statement that everyone needs to obsess on weight transfer either (which, I suspect is really your true point).

[TN94z]

Originally Posted by mvmac

So you don't do this

That's awesome!!  I'm saving that pic

[mvmac]

Real quick for everyone, yes weight forward helps us move low point forward so we can hit the ball first but is also has a big influence on path.  If my weight stays back or isn't forward enough, there is a very good chance you're going to hit a weak fade/slice because the path will be across the ball.  Test it out, play the ball way forward on an iron shot, like past your left toe, effectively moving the weight back, see what kind of shot you hit.  That's why pre-setting the weight back and "keeping it there" won't work. That's one of the most asinine things I've ever heard.

Originally Posted by logman

Chunky, mate, My last 3 rounds have been a 1 under 31(9holes), a 73 and a 75 (easy course). I'm doing OK.

If you're shooting those scores, then I guarantee your weight/pressure is forward at impact.  Not saying it's 90% forward, doesn't have to be a 90% forward to hit good shots.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by stoverny

The "modern swing" as it is taught nowadays focuses almost exclusively on lower-body rotation and weight shift and I think that has made the game harder not easier for a lot of players.

Modern set up pretty much guarantee a bad golfer.

no room to learn the swing mechanics.

[jamo]

Modern set up pretty much guarantee a bad golfer. no room to learn the swing mechanics.

In what way?

[stoverny]

Quote:

Real quick for everyone, yes weight forward helps us move low point forward so we can hit the ball first but is also has a big influence on path.  If my weight stays back or isn't forward enough, there is a very good chance you're going to hit a weak fade/slice because the path will be across the ball.  Test it out, play the ball way forward on an iron shot, like past your left toe, effectively moving the weight back, see what kind of shot you hit.  That's why pre-setting the weight back and "keeping it there" won't work. That's one of the most asinine things I've ever heard.

I had struggled with a weak fade/slice for a long time until I switched methods... my natural shot now is a draw.  My scores were routinely in the mid-90s and are now in the mid-80s.  Obviously I am not a great golfer yet (only switched methods late last year) - but my ball striking has improved immensely and the game is fun again.

I am not an expert I am just pointing out my personal results.  I have no beef with those who say their method is better.  I can only go by my own results.  There is absolutely nothing in the swing that keeps me from attacking the ball from the inside... in fact the ability to finally hit a penetrating draw is one of the main benefits.

Again I think the issue may be in perception or swing thoughts.  I am not moving WAY back off the ball (to use your example of putting the ball past your left toe) and then hitting while leaning backwards.  I am moving my head back over my right knee at address, essentially presetting the weight shift.  I do play the ball a little farther back in my stance to compensate for this, however I do not get line-drive trajectory as some earlier posters claimed would happen if you move ball position back.  I then rotate around my stable back leg and head, and hit the ball from the inside with a stable lower body.  The weight shifts forward after the ball is gone as part of the follow through.

At least, that is how it feels.   I suppose the weight may actually shifting forward AS I am swinging, without my thinking about it, due to the force of the arms and clubhead - however my swing thought is simply stay stable on the back leg and let the arms swing the club.  It works, for me and for many others.

I am not here to argue that my way is best, or anything else... I only chimed in because I get very good results using a method that seems (at least by his descriptions) to be quite similar to logman.  Most replies to his OP were completely dismissive of the idea of minimizing weight forward, and I wanted to throw in another voice into the "okay, but it works" camp...