WOW I Finally Get Lag and Release

[inthecup]

Originally Posted by colin007

...because i suck giant donkey balls when it comes to golf.

Funny, Golf is a great tool to build self esteem or in my case self loathing.  I feel your pain.

[Taylor Johnson]

Originally Posted by inthecup

I have made my way in the world by being relentless..... I was not correct in thinking you can hold off the club and found that timing and positions will generate the elusive lag....

Being relentless is great. But if you don't pair it up with a good strategy you're going to be awfully disappointed and frustrated. I've learned that the hard way a few times.

[inthecup]

I have been able to get my hands in front of the ball at impact but I still give away the lag and flip a bit less but it is there..  I think I found the final piece of the puzzle and it makes perfect sense.  I will work on it today.  There is a very difinite sequence and strategy to make this happen.  I will report back with video once I find success.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by inthecup

I have been able to get my hands in front of the ball at impact but I still give away the lag and flip a bit less but it is there..  I think I found the final piece of the puzzle and it makes perfect sense.  I will work on it today.  There is a very difinite sequence and strategy to make this happen.  I will report back with video once I find success.

Good luck.

But we may have to change your handle to "Tin Cup."

[Iwanttobreak100]

Does anyone have a visual of the part in bold below (end of handle pointing left of target). I can't visualize this, does this mean that the head of the club is on the outside coming down?

Originally Posted by inthecup

I am taking lessons and working into a net with video and a launch monitor.  I finally found an instructor that explained and demonstrated it (lag) in a way that I understood.  I have been working on my swing for 3 years and although I got better and better I knew I was flipping but did not know how to stop it.  I also asked the pro a lot of questions.  One that always bothered me is that there should be no tension in a golf swing.  I found it impossible to create lag without tension.  I have hit balls 4-5 sessions trying to groove the new feel and although I need more work the results are very promising.  When you get it right you can feel the shaft load coming into the strike and the ball speed/distance pick up dramatically.  Amazingly my dispersion is also tightening.  Really looking forward to grooving this and getting out on the course.  Based on the weather in MI it looks like I will have plenty of time to practice into a net.

One drill I use is quarter swings holding lag and working on hip rotation.   High frame rate video is also invaluable to see what is actually happening and to compare my swing to a good one.  The lag king appears to be Sergio so I am keying in on his swing for comparison.

Some observations that I believe are correct that took me a long time to make sense of (I am sure Erik will jump in if I spread untruths):

Bringing the club down is a drop, right arm tight to the side.

As I move the club forward the end of the handle is pointing left of the target.

I am actively holding the lag, I don't see a way around it.  Commentators always mention the strength needed to maintain lag, can't apply force without tension

As I said it is a work in progress but the the gains in distance and the tightening of dispersion I feel like I am on to something.

What other drills are helpful to learn lag.

[RonTheSavage]

Worked on this alot in then past few weeks. I am happy to report some positive results. I can honestly say I have noticed a SLIGHT distance increase. Yesterday the guy next to me commented how good one of my hyrid shots off the tee sounded. But one of the coolest changes was I am noticing ball marks directly in the middle of the wedge face and my divots are starting a inch or so behind where they used to start on good contact shots.

This lag stuff is awesome!

[Iwanttobreak100]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Well, you really can't hold them together - you keep them close without tension while on the way down, as you keep the handle in front of the clubhead.  Try a downswing in slo mo while squeezing the elbows towards one another...

I see what you are saying, is it more of trying to make your right elbow come close to your left elbow on the way down so that it also doesn't get stuck behind you (and it looks like the Hogan video posted earlier)?

[dave s]

Tip from one of a Champions Tour players on a 1/2 hour lesson tee show on Golf Channel.

The player was indicating holding on to the hinged part of the swing as long as you possibly can and probably longer than you feel necessary to keep the hands forward position at impact.  Release is going to happen because of the way your arms are constructed.

To help with holding onto the lag as long as possible, he also mentioned to feel like you're trying to stick the HEEL area of the iron into the ground.

My assessment.  Both good ideas.  Hold on as long as you possibly can.  It's impossible to stick the heel area of the iron into the ground as long as the club moves along the swing plane and toward the target.

Both thoughts have resulted in me keeping my hands well ahead of teed par 3 shots with shorter clubs like 7i - wedges.

dave

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Iwanttobreak100

I see what you are saying, is it more of trying to make your right elbow come close to your left elbow on the way down so that it also doesn't get stuck behind you (and it looks like the Hogan video posted earlier)?

I would say, "yes."

Previously, I've tried actively holding it, even with various training aids. Doesn't work for me.

[Zeph]

Does anyone have a visual of the part in bold below (end of handle pointing left of target). I can't visualize this, does this mean that the head of the club is on the outside coming down? [QUOTE] As I move the club forward the end of the handle is pointing left of the target. [/QUOTE]

The idea with this visualization is to forget the club head. The general idea is that if you focus on the club head, it's difficult to get it right. You want to be thinking that you swing the handle, not the clubhead. It's just trailing behind the handle. Exactly where you visualize it is up to you I guess, but you want to focus on keeping the handle pointing towards the target. Which side of it is not that relevant, in my opinion. The reason is that the handle will change it's "aim" all the way through the downswing. As you move down, the handle will progressively change from aiming right of the target, to left of it. Keeping it in the general direction of the target is the key point. You are trying to keep it horisontal as long as possible. When you flip, the handle will rotate and start aiming at the sky way too soon in the downswing. You are focusing on keeping the handle aimed at the target. Chances are you won't be able to hold it for too long. For someone flipping, it's better to opt for erring on the "too much lag" side, than "too little", at least initially. As always, you want to exaggerate when making a change. There are many ways to visualize this. Some might work for you, some might not.

[14ledo81]

The idea with this visualization is to forget the club head. The general idea is that if you focus on the club head, it's difficult to get it right. You want to be thinking that you swing the handle, not the clubhead. It's just trailing behind the handle. Exactly where you visualize it is up to you I guess, but you want to focus on keeping the handle pointing towards the target. Which side of it is not that relevant, in my opinion. The reason is that the handle will change it's "aim" all the way through the downswing. As you move down, the handle will progressively change from aiming right of the target, to left of it. Keeping it in the general direction of the target is the key point. You are trying to keep it horisontal as long as possible. When you flip, the handle will rotate and start aiming at the sky way too soon in the downswing. You are focusing on keeping the handle aimed at the target. Chances are you won't be able to hold it for too long. For someone flipping, it's better to opt for erring on the "too much lag" side, than "too little", at least initially. As always, you want to exaggerate when making a change. There are many ways to visualize this. Some might work for you, some might not.

What are some things you have done to exaggerate this? I struggle with a flip myself.

[liveeel]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Sounds like you're making real progress!

But never, EVER say out loud that you "get" anything in this silly game or the golf gods will surely punish you!

Agreed. I once made the mistake of telling everyone on the tee box that hitting driver is the easiest part of golf, and that I could do it blind folded. At the time I truley believed that that I could. Thats been several months ago and I have struggled ever since. David in FL you should give golf lessons, charge $75 an hour,  give them a bucket of balls and tell them to ''never under any circumstances never say out loud that you ''get'' anything in this silly game.''

[M2R]

The simplest to perform and understand that I have found (for myself). Like Zeph said might work for you, might not.

Description: A drill to help players learn to maintain the right wrist angle and also get a flat left wrist. It won't make the course superintendent happy but it will make everyone a better player. Stop the flipping with this one. Mike hit over 1,000 balls a day for months to perfect this

[Zeph]

What are some things you have done to exaggerate this? I struggle with a flip myself.

The concept of lag, flipping and release is a rather big one. The problem for many is that there are factors in the swing which makes it harder for a lot of people. The most common one perhaps being the weight distribution. Without getting the weight forward, it is very difficult to achieve a better impact position. Still, I believe you can have a perfect swing motion and still flip actively (but subconsciously). There are a lot of drills out there. Personally, I tend to be too fast from the top. Retaining the lag when I start throwing it away right away is pretty difficult. When I work on drills like this, I make sure to slow things down. Starting out with short swings and progressively making larger turns and adding more speed. If I at some point start having trouble, I'll slow down again. You can imagine trying to get the hands to the left pocket before impact, getting them over your left shoe, keeping the handle pointed forwards, look 2-4 inches in front of the ball, etc. There are many ways to do this.

[logman]

Flipping......?

So the clubhead gets slightly forward of the hands at impact. Does the club being ahead of the hands rule out a slight downward AOA???

And anyway, so if the clubhead is 1 inch behind the hands everything is hunky dory, but then if the clubhead is a millimeter ahead of the hands then somehow the swing is a "flip" and a poor strike.

Flipping is the new boogie man of golf teaching.

[EverythingGolf]

Originally Posted by logman

Flipping......?

So the clubhead gets slightly forward of the hands at impact. Does the club being ahead of the hands rule out a slight downward AOA???

And anyway, so if the clubhead is 1 inch behind the hands everything is hunky dory, but then if the clubhead is a millimeter ahead of the hands then somehow the swing is a "flip" and a poor strike.

Flipping is the new boogie man of golf teaching.

There is no boogie man in golf...lol. Flipping is when you lose lag pressure and that is what causes speed and "compression" of the golf ball for maximum distance and that back spin that everyone is after. The most important thing is that it will produce a more consistant ball flight for distance etc.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by logman

So the clubhead gets slightly forward of the hands at impact. Does the club being ahead of the hands rule out a slight downward AOA???

For the most part, yes.

The hands reach their low point around your trail thigh, so if the clubhead is also ascending relative to the hands, then that rules out a slightly downward AoA.

Defeated by simple geometry once again.

Originally Posted by logman

And anyway, so if the clubhead is 1 inch behind the hands everything is hunky dory, but then if the clubhead is a millimeter ahead of the hands then somehow the swing is a "flip" and a poor strike.

1mm eh? Right, because that's what we're talking about. You do realize what 1mm ahead of the hands looks like, don't you?

BTW Note that I even gave you the benefit of the doubt by using the center of his grip, midway between his two hands. If you mean 1mm in front of any part of his hand, well, good luck!

Originally Posted by logman

Flipping is the new boogie man of golf teaching.

No, you've got that role sewn up for awhile.

[inthecup]

Originally Posted by Iwanttobreak100

Does anyone have a visual of the part in bold below (end of handle pointing left of target). I can't visualize this, does this mean that the head of the club is on the outside coming down?

Look at the very start of this video, the end of the handle is pointing to the target.

The big things to me were

1.  A golf swing is not a hard shoulder turn

2.) The hands are very close to the body,  If you do the big shoulder turn you can't keep the hands close to the body (look how close they are in the video).

3.) the swing is a progressive move the hips rotate and hands drop (not swing but drop) then the right arm pushes through.

These are my feelings how you interpret them may be different

The last couple feet of movement before the club hits the ball the club accelerates radically and that is where distance comes from.  I feel I am swinging easier and the ball is rocketing out there.  I need a lot of work to ingrain this in my swing it is a radical change and I am just doing it OK not great but still getting good distance and good consistency..

No disrespect to this site buy I found the Rotary Swing to be very complete from start to finish in explaining what needs to happen.  I am a paying member (25 bucks for the first month) but it has opened my eyes to what has to happen, not necessarily easy to do but I got my 6 iron going from a sky scraper balls flight 160 yards distance to a 175-180 yard ball flight 30 yard max height in a couple weeks of working hard every day.

I am also taking lessons with a pro who agrees with everything I am trying to do.