what are cons of game improvement clubs (intended for high handicappers)

[dak4n6]

Originally Posted by cipher

Quote:

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Gd, I agree with you, but I think you are unintentionally arguing against any differences between blades and GIs. IE, if it's all about the swing, what does it matter what kind of hunk of metal is at the end of the shaft?

In my experience, most misses are chunks or thins, which no amount of GI is going to change (yes I know about sole/turf interaction, but when you hit 1" behind the ball no amount of width/cambering/radiusing/chamfering is going put lipstick on that pig). The next most common miss is the bananna slice or duck hook, and those are issues of swing path and clubface orientation, and again, no amount of cavity/inverted cone/COG manipulation is going to turn OTT open face contact into ITO square face contact. So, why not go with clubs that will at least feel great and give you intimate feedback?

I don't really have anything to back it up but I actually think it does help a bit if you hit 1" behind the ball since most have the wider sole and increased bounce.  How could it not?  I don't know too many people that banana slice or duck hook irons so I don't really think that is as big an issue really.  Mainly they help in large part with off center hits.  Shot distribution would be better for most golfers with them, and most golfers don't need intimate feedback playing once a week or a couple times a month.  I can feel where I hit my 4i on the face just fine as well.

I see high cappers with SGI clubs hit 1" behind the ball and dig trenches with the ball going about 20 yds all the time. And, you don't see many high cappers bananna slice irons? Really? Personally I don't see too many hit the ball straight.

[Mulligan Jeff]

The cons of game improvement irons is that you cannot work the ball. I play game improvement irons and swear by them! Blades are too difficult to hit consistently.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

I see high cappers with SGI clubs hit 1" behind the ball and dig trenches with the ball going about 20 yds all the time. And, you don't see many high cappers bananna slice irons? Really? Personally I don't see too many hit the ball straight.

I see them more hit it thin or fat or on the toe or heel than anything else.  Most that I play with hit their driver all over but are relatively straight with the mid and short irons.  Maybe I just don't play with enough people.

Originally Posted by Mulligan Jeff

The cons of game improvement irons is that you cannot work the ball. I play game improvement irons and swear by them! Blades are too difficult to hit consistently.

Not entirely true(read the other posts), but that is ok.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Gd, I agree with you, but I think you are unintentionally arguing against any differences between blades and GIs. IE, if it's all about the swing, what does it matter what kind of hunk of metal is at the end of the shaft?

In my experience, most misses are chunks or thins, which no amount of GI is going to change (yes I know about sole/turf interaction, but when you hit 1" behind the ball no amount of width/cambering/radiusing/chamfering is going put lipstick on that pig). The next most common miss is the bananna slice or duck hook, and those are issues of swing path and clubface orientation, and again, no amount of cavity/inverted cone/COG manipulation is going to turn OTT open face contact into ITO square face contact. So, why not go with clubs that will at least feel great and give you intimate feedback?

Yeah, that's about right.  Well, I'm not arguing against any differences, but to me, there is only one that matters a lot, and those are misses on the toe.  We both agree, any ball flight issues (slices, hooks) are attributable to the swing, not the club.  We also agree that fat shots and thin shots are always going to be fat and thin no matter which club you are using.  I also believe that you're never going to go wrong (or at least find any differences between clubs) when you're missing heel side.  Heck, there are pros that intentionally hit the ball a little heel side of center (wasn't Hogan one of those??) so as long as you're not hitting shanks, you're fine with any club.  And shanks are shanks with any club too.

But if you ever miss out towards the toe, then that's where you'll see a big difference between the two.  And this is where I think it's cheating to call my i20s "players" irons, because they don't fit the mold.  Here's an example that happened yesterday (and happens pretty much every time I practice) ... I hit a 9 iron that travels 140 instead of 150, and feels solid.  A miss, but not a bad miss, by any means.  I look down at the club, and there is (I shit you not) a mark from the range ball on the club that is partially off the end of the grooves.  When I hit shots like that with my old DCIs (which are cavity backs) the club would rattle, the ball would go 70 yards instead of 140, and my hands would hurt.

One other downside of SGI clubs for better players would be that you might hit the ball too high.  Of course, that kind of stuff can be counteracted by different shafts and tweaking lofts too.

[tristanhilton85]

I think the one issue that better players might have with a GI club is trajectory... the CG of most GI clubs is very low to help players get the ball up into the air easily; when you don't need this help you may end up finding the ball going higher than you want.

[Pakoh]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

A lot of forgiveness on my toe-hits. :)

I told you your not allowed to use a "foot wedge"!

[mvmac]

There are no cons of game improvement irons, just depends on what the player likes and needs.  Some players like offset, Ernie Else gets his blades made with extra offset, TaylorMade makes a "C" version of their irons, for tour players, that have a lot more offset.  GI tend to have a more muted sound, so less responsive feel, and they will launch higher than blades.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I think about it this way ... in all of the lessons I've received, or videos I've watched on here, or essays I've read about ball flight laws, ball trajectory, how to hook it, how to slice it, how to stop hooking it, stop slicing it, how to hit a draw, fade, and so on and so on, I have never seen a caveat regarding the type of club you are using.  It's always about the swing and the physics of the contact between the club and the ball, and nothing else.

The other bit of logic I use is that I know a lot of pros play GI clubs ... or at least clubs I would consider forgiving.  Lee Westwood and Mark Wilson, for example, play (or have played) i20s.  Lee Westwood is a top 10 in the world player so he certainly doesn't need the extra forgiveness ... so why would he play clubs that would not allow him to work the ball as needed?

Agree with everything you've posted so far GD.  Blade irons , or GI irons , it's still works the same..... strike the ball with the center of the face, and the ball will start in the direction the face is pointing, and will curve relative to the face angle/path.  The GI iron can have a different CoG location, generally lower and further away from the face but that difference will have a small impact on the work-ability of an iron . It's more to do with the trajectory (height) of a shot, though, and even then it can be subtle.  Blade irons have a CoG that is higher and closer to the face which will produce a lower trajectory.  A CoG low and rearward in the head will produce a higher trajectory.

Lee Westwood uses the i20 irons because he hits it higher than the S56 or Anser irons (what I've been told by PING engineers).  He's going to hit most shots in the center of the club so "forgiveness" isn't something he probably needs, but the i20's make it easier fot him to launch it high without ballooning it.  He can hit them low if he wants to but hitting it high is an advantage on tour because of where they put the pin locations and the speed of the greens.

[eich41]

I am by no means an expert in golf equipment, but if there truly is no cons to GI irons, then why would anyone play anything else?  If there is truly NO tradeoff for the extra forgiveness, then why wouldn't everyone take the extra forgiveness?  Logic dictates that there has to be some give and take between a blade and GI, otherwise nobody would play blades regardless of their ball striking ability.  Perhaps it's a very small tradeoff, but there has to be something.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by eich41

I am by no means an expert in golf equipment, but if there truly is no cons to GI irons, then why would anyone play anything else?  If there is truly NO tradeoff for the extra forgiveness, then why wouldn't everyone take the extra forgiveness?  Logic dictates that there has to be some give and take between a blade and GI, otherwise nobody would play blades regardless of their ball striking ability.  Perhaps it's a very small tradeoff, but there has to be something.

Because they don't want to look at the ugly GI offset, or they want to be cool and use blades.  The only other reason based on performance that a player would not want to play GI irons would be if they want a lower ball flight.  We have already covered this.  In large too many mid single digit HC'ers are using blades, performance wise they would be better off using a "players" perimeter weighted lower CoG club or a GI club. Even forged CB versions in IMO would be better than blades for most of us.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by eich41

I am by no means an expert in golf equipment, but if there truly is no cons to GI irons, then why would anyone play anything else?  If there is truly NO tradeoff for the extra forgiveness, then why wouldn't everyone take the extra forgiveness?  Logic dictates that there has to be some give and take between a blade and GI, otherwise nobody would play blades regardless of their ball striking ability.  Perhaps it's a very small tradeoff, but there has to be something.

Like I said, depends on the player.  Due to the look at address, some players hit smaller sized clubs better than GI irons, some hit GI irons better than blades.  There are guys on the PGA tour that are playing PING G series irons.  There are also players that might hit the ball horribly with the same design.  Like with putters, some guys aim a putter that has a dot better than a putter with a line on it.  There are different characteristics of GI irons and blades but not necessarily cons imo

[Zeph]

Feel, looks and sound also makes a big difference.

[Mulligan Jeff]

Well put MVMAC it all hinges on who you ask - low-handicap, mid-handicap or high-handicap player from each bracket will give a different answer. There's really no wrong answer to the question. I've read your responses on other posts and reckon you have a vision for this game beyond most of us, therefore I delegate you to join the Golf Channel!!

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Mulligan Jeff

I've read your responses on other posts and reckon you have a vision for this game beyond most of us, therefore I delegate you to join the Golf Channel!!

Should I start a petition?  Watch out Brandel!

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Should I start a petition?  Watch out Brandel!

LOL ... No way, you're too nice and polite to mave any waves on The Golf Channel.  Erik, on the other hand ...

[thanw]

To me a GI iron is hard to hit in-between shots. If you hit the sweet spot it wants to go the same distance whether it is a 3/4 swing or 90% effort. The offset irons make some sense to me also but not so much with the drivers. I would rather work on my swing/address than buy a closed face driver but I can see where an offset iron would be less work and seem more natural for some. Some pros play longer GI irons but you can't half-a^^ those shots anyway.

[Ernest Jones]

LOL ... No way, you're too nice and polite to mave any waves on The Golf Channel.  Erik, on the other hand ... :bugout:

Lol @ mave.

[anthony]

Mostly, they're are ugly as shit. When I had my clubs regripped earlier this year I was looking at some of these SGI oversized monstrosities. I couldn't imagine stepping up to one of those. Ultimately, your swing is the most important piece to the puzzle. I would recommend buying a set of clubs you think look good and look nice at address. I wouldn't buy a set of blades or Mizuno mp-whatever's, but I wouldn't go around thinking you are obligated to buy an SGI set based on your handicap. I cut my handicap almost in half with the same set (Mizuno MX-200) and will probably play them for another season or two.

[M2R]

I have a mixed set of Cleveland (2005 models) CG2 (3-6) and CG1 (7-PW) and moving between them can be a little jarring at times. To me they only differ markedly in two ways.

1. The larger heads on the CG2 don't cut through some nastier lies in the rough like the smaller CG1 heads and soles can.
2. How the sole/grind interact with the turf taking a divot. If the player is a sweeper/picker and/or plays on softer soil types it probably isn't noticeable. Play on a muni that turn into hardpan in the summer and the CG2 soles just sort of glancing bounce off it rather than taking a proper divot. They both work but the CG1 just cuts through even harder soil relatively effortlessly where the CG2 feels more like blunt force gouging out a divot.
   

Not sure if those are "cons" but they are differences that I notice.