Tournaments or leagues??

[jaysquared]

If you can only choose one which would you rather play in and why?! I played my first tournament today and really enjoyed it except for the sandbagging(winner of my flight shot a 63 net). I know with leagues its harder to sand bag because most everybody knows each others game.. I've never joined in a league and I'm really interested in playing in one..

[MS256]

On sandbagging: Most of the people I know that play in handicapped tournaments (that aren't in the top flight) always complain about sandbagging because somebody is always going to play better than their handicap would indicate.

Part of it is that some people are fully capable of shooting a low round but have enough bad rounds to keep their handicap higher. All it takes is for one person in the flight to have one of their peaks to make them look like a sandbagger.

Part of it is that, even though they do their best to correctly rate the courses, some courses are simply harder than others in relation to the course and slope rating. The people that happen to have a home course that is harder in relation to the course rating than another course are going to have a higher handicap than somebody with the same skill level from an easier course but the same course rating.

Part of it is that people that play a particular course often are more likely to beat players that have never played that course when both have the same handicap.

And yes, some people really do "cheat" on the scores they record for handicap purposes. (SMH)

I don't have a handicap and the only tournaments I play in are two day events where the flights on the second day are determined by the scores on the first day. I've had people actually tell me that they "don't want to try very hard the first day" so they "won't end up in the Championship Flight" (with very little chance to win). I guess I just look at it differently because I want to be in the Championship Flight and that's more important to me than winning a lower flight, even though I have no realistic chance to win the top flight unless a miracle happens.

Still waiting on that miracle. Ha ha! I've never won any tournament I've ever played in but I've only failed to play in the top flight one time and was playing bad enough that weekend that I had no chance in the second flight on the second day either. It seems my problem has always been that I'm just barely good enough to usually get in the flight with the best players in the tournament but not good enough to beat those players.

[jaysquared]

Yeah I know people can have a "great day" and bad days.. But you really have to question how honest some people are with their reported score.. You yourself have witnessed people purposely tanking a round so that they don't get placed on a higher flight.. I think whenever there is any type of competition involve there are people out there who would do anything to try and win it.. Like the saying goes "if you ain't cheating then your not trying".. Oh well.. It seems with leagues its harder to sandbag since most league members will know your game.. Unlike tourneys where you don't know most of the players there..

[MS256]

Originally Posted by jaysquared

Yeah I know people can have a "great day" and bad days.. But you really have to question how honest some people are with their reported score.. You yourself have witnessed people purposely tanking a round so that they don't get placed on a higher flight.. I think whenever there is any type of competition involve there are people out there who would do anything to try and win it.. Like the saying goes "if you ain't cheating then your not trying".. Oh well.. It seems with leagues its harder to sandbag since most league members will know your game.. Unlike tourneys where you don't know most of the players there..

Yeah I guess some people will always cheat. Charity 4 person scrambles are popular around here but I never play in them, unless I just want to donate the money to the charity anyway. The amount of cheating that goes on in those things is unbelievable. I was at one where the "winning team" conveniently forgot to turn in their scorecard until all of the other scores were posted, and they won by one stroke.

I can't prove they cheated but I figure the odds of four guys that can't break 80 on their best day beating multiple teams of scratch or better golfers is pretty slim, even in a scramble.

I don't mind losing and I don't mind giving to charity but I hate to see cheaters walk off with the first place money.

[cooke119]

I play in a league at work and have a lot of fun. It is a great way to meet and network with people.  As stated above there is no cheating because everyone plays everyone else during the year and we keep an eye on each other. I have never come across anyone trying to sandbag, we all try to play our best. So at the end of the season when we have our tournament we all have accurate HCs. The tournaments are a lot of fun. We do play for money (not much) but the alcohol consumed starting at breakfast kind of makes it more fun than anything else. We have 'longest drive', 'closest to the line', which is where honsesty comes in but even there we watch each other as well. We're not going to let someone cheat even if they wanted to.

Try finding a league to play in I think you'll have a lot of fun.

[Teamanglerx]

I play in a work league also and its fun to be able to go out and have fun with your buddies at work.  Our league is very laid back and a good amount of fun ribbing, even the good players, is the norm.

The guy who runs our league created a handicap system where your handicap is recalculated every two weeks.  This prevents the "sand baggers" from running away every week.  It also gives the higher handicap players (like myself) a chance to win a week every once and awhile so the competition stays pretty even no matter what the skill level.

[club ho]

Originally Posted by cooke119

I play in a league at work and have a lot of fun. It is a great way to meet and network with people.  As stated above there is no cheating because everyone plays everyone else during the year and we keep an eye on each other. I have never come across anyone trying to sandbag, we all try to play our best. So at the end of the season when we have our tournament we all have accurate HCs. The tournaments are a lot of fun. We do play for money (not much) but the alcohol consumed starting at breakfast kind of makes it more fun than anything else. We have 'longest drive', 'closest to the line', which is where honsesty comes in but even there we watch each other as well. We're not going to let someone cheat even if they wanted to.

Try finding a league to play in I think you'll have a lot of fun.

I concur with the leagues being the most fair because the players scores are tracked. Most leagues require a few qualifying rounds which also increases the integrity of the handicaps. In  our club championship players are entered in the championship flight and a handicap flight. Your final position is determined by which ever works best for you. I don't get too hung up on winning but rather how I stack up compared to the other players on the over all. The sandbagging can be annoying but that is why I don't get too caught up with the flighted division. League play is where you find the most honest situations by far.

[bkuehn1952]

I have played in leagues and tournaments.  Both are fun but I prefer tournaments.  League play requires a season long commitment and typically the same course, week in and week out.  My experience was that there was a bias in any handicap system used depending on who created the system.  Also, often "local" rules are used that pretty severely bend the Rules of Golf.

Tournaments typically are "one and done" with no commitment to a certain frequency of play.  I prefer the handicapped tournaments run by our senior "club without real estate".  The 180 or so members know everyone's game and we are not subject to hit & run sandbaggers.  Our prize level is modest enough to discourage anyone from seeking to profit from a cooked handicap.  I also play in some flighted tournaments but those are easier to manipulate with a bad first round.

Some tournaments have sandbaggers or cheaters.  At other times, however, the comments about sandbagging are unfair.  Too many players manipulate their handicap to make their number low (vanity handicap).  Then they get into a handicap tournament where they do not get to hit "Mulligans", move balls out of divots or otherwise stretch the Rules of Golf.  These guys always wonder how someone is able to shoot their handicap in a tournament.  Rather than accuse the winner of cheating they might want to look at how they got their 8.5 index.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by jaysquared

If you can only choose one which would you rather play in and why?! I played my first tournament today and really enjoyed it except for the sandbagging(winner of my flight shot a 63 net). I know with leagues its harder to sand bag because most everybody knows each others game.. I've never joined in a league and I'm really interested in playing in one..

Just because he shot a net 63 doesn't make him a sandbagger.  All griping about it accomplishes is make you sound like  a poor sport.  It's no different from a pro shooting 8 or 9 under when his normal scoring average is 2 or 3 under.  I played around 10 tournaments per year for 22 years and in every field of 120 to 160 players there were a few exceptional scores in each round.  It's just part of the game.  I've done it myself (shot a one over par 73 while carrying an honest 16 handicap), and it had nothing to do with sandbagging.  Some days you are just on .  To accuse someone of sandbagging, there must be evidence of him submitting abnormal scores or otherwise manipulating the system.  And by the way, just because it's a league is no guarantee that they have a handicap watchdog.

My tournaments were not in a league, but in a self managed mens club at a Denver area public course.  We had a membership of 250 players, elected our board of directors, operated under a formal set of bylaws, set up and ran our own tournaments (14 or 15 each year, including several single elimination match play comps which ran all season long) and managed our members' handicaps under the auspices of the Colorado Golf Association using the USGA GHIN system.  During the 22 years I was in the club (including 4 years serving on the rules committee on the board of directors), I witnessed many exceptional scores, but only 2 guys who were ever true sandbaggers, and our handicap committee nipped that as soon as the evidence condemned them.

I highly recommend playing in competitions of some sort, but you need to open your mind a bit.  If you make such an accusation every time you are the victim of a good round of golf, you aren't going to enjoy it very much.

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by MS256

Yeah I guess some people will always cheat. Charity 4 person scrambles are popular around here but I never play in them, unless I just want to donate the money to the charity anyway. The amount of cheating that goes on in those things is unbelievable. I was at one where the "winning team" conveniently forgot to turn in their scorecard until all of the other scores were posted, and they won by one stroke.

I can't prove they cheated but I figure the odds of four guys that can't break 80 on their best day beating multiple teams of scratch or better golfers is pretty slim, even in a scramble.

I don't mind losing and I don't mind giving to charity but I hate to see cheaters walk off with the first place money.

I love playing 4 man scrambles but I know going in that it's just for fun. If I play in one without handicaps, I know that a team with 4 "A" players will bust out a 53 and blow away the field. If I play in one with handicaps, I know that there will be sandbagging going on. It doesn't matter to me because we're just raising money for charity and I'm mainly out there only to hang with the fellas and have some fun.