Question for teachers: Why are Dan McLaughlin's (www.thedanplan.com) numbers so low

[grubby98]

I honestly believe people do not know how good the tour pros actually are.  I play a lot with the head pro at my local course, his brother is in my normal foursome, and he is very good.  I mean yesterday he came out on shitty weather, no warm-up except one practice ball and shot a 66 on a 69/123.  It was cold, rainy and windy 10-15mph.  He played bad and with no warm up still shot -6.  He has only qualified for a few web.com and some senior tour events last couple of years.   He says when he was younger he was even better, but only sniffed the mini tours. When they say these guys are good, they really mean the are really really really good!!!

Dan shoots mid to high 70s with lots of 80s at his home course.  He would get laughed off the range before he even got to the course at a professional event.  My pro says if you cant shoot mid 60s on your bad days at your home course, then you are not even close to being a tour player.

[garybbq]

This [quote name="MS256" url="/t/66682/question-for-teachers-why-are-dan-mclaughlins-www-thedanplan-com-numbers-so-low/30#post_839854"]My opinions with nothing to back them up: A lot of the potential for power we have is the fast twitch abilitly we are born with. Since most of us never use all of our natural potential for speed and power due to improper mechanics often players with less natural ability but better training techniques can eliminate that power leakage and end up more powerful. Players in any sport I've been around that are allowed (or forced) to use maximum power at an early age almost always carry it with them as they get older. That kid that is playing on the men's slow pitch softball team when he's in the fourth grade, or that kid that's on the high school golf team when he's in elementary school, or that kid that gets moved up from Little League to Pony League and is forced into using maximum power to be able to compete will usually always be a power player for life, and the kids that didn't will have to try to catch them in the power department through training and mechanical improvement. Most golfers that have power that didn't take up golf as a kid carried the power they learned from baseball, hockey, or swinging a sledge hammer or a ax on their dad's farm with them into golf. Then the only thing they have to do is pull off the changes in mechanics, mostly getting over the back palm up/front palm down at impact that baseball and swinging a hammer or an ax require. (Easy to say, much harder to do). Let's say I'm a college baseball coach and you let me watch two kids at 12 years old pitch and one of them is as wild as a March rabbit but throws everything as hard as he can and the other has good control but never turns loose the fastball, and then I never get to see those kids again. When they get to college age I have to pick the one I want on my team without seeing them. I'll take the wild kid that pushed for power. More than likely he will have learned control and more than likely the other kid will have not have the power to get a fastball past a college hitter. He may be a Greg Maddux or a John Tudor, and may be the best pitcher of the two, but without knowing for sure I'll take my chances with the power kid. [/quote] This is a really interesting point, I have never thought of it this way. Funny but now that I think about it allot of the high handicap players I see and play with have all played sports starting from a young age, hockey, baseball etc just not golf.

[M2R]

Originally Posted by MS256

My opinions with nothing to back them up:

Players in any sport I've been around that are allowed (or forced) to use maximum power at an early age almost always carry it with them as they get older.

The parts of the video I think are pertinent to your comment start at about 1:55 and pick up again around 6:20 or so.  Video is pretty old so some of the info might be out of date. The really interesting part to me was the idea of windows of train-ability as people grow and develop.

[Dave2512]

Not sure previous sports experience at any level is a key ingredient to successful golf. If you've ever seen a pro-am you know how bad some of the former pro ball players can be. With regard to golf I believe the natural ability part is more than just physical ability. There are the odd examples in every sport where someone picked it up late in life relative to others and achieved greatness but they certainly aren't the norm.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

Not sure previous sports experience at any level is a key ingredient to successful golf. If you've ever seen a pro-am you know how bad some of the former pro ball players can be. With regard to golf I believe the natural ability part is more than just physical ability. There are the odd examples in every sport where someone picked it up late in life relative to others and achieved greatness but they certainly aren't the norm.

Being good at one sport certainly doesn't guarantee someone will be good at another, but if I had to pick a player from a list of athletes and from a list of people that never played anything, and they had six months to see who the best golfer was, I would take an athlete.

If I could narrow it down more I would take somebody that could really throw, and if I could narrow it down further than that I would take somebody that could really throw with a sidearm motion. Hockey players also have a fairly easy transition to golf.

Baseball hitters have a much tougher road because of the back palm up/ front palm down factor, plus they want to have the front arm in line with the shaft at impact from a down the line view. Some have a Hell of a time ever getting past those two things.

I saw a former NFL defensive back play softball one time and I was shocked at how bad his arm was. I guess even with all of the time he spent on the football field he just never really learned to throw.

Seems like latley some of the guys with a basketball background are doing well. Come to think of it Nicklaus was also a very good basketball player. Not much hitting or throwing they bring to golf from basketball but a whole lot of overall athleticism and spacial awareness.

[LuciusWooding]

I never touched a golf club until about June of 2011, I was 21. Didn't get instruction of any kind, even my dad wasn't any good to be able to teach me anything. He did give me a 50 year old copy of Hogan's 5 lessons, which I read a few times.

Now I hadn't been a natural athlete either. I was good at martial arts and baseball, but never did any sports until I was 14 and didn't stick with either after about 16. Never really got pushed by my family to compete or get better, had no real competition from rivals or anything. I was 6 feet and 150 pounds, which I still am. Not physically gifted by any means, though I had well above average flexibility. I was never a power hitter in baseball, either. In the interest of full disclosure, I have 2 blood relatives that I know of who are PGA teaching professionals, but I've only met them once or twice. So maybe golf runs in the family a bit, but it certainly skipped plenty of the men in my family.

When I first started playing, I hit occasional drives about 200 carry and 220 total when I hit them well, used about a 9 iron from 110 and a hybrid for anything over 150. Certainly my mechanics weren't good since I flipped at the ball and had a wicked slice. I've improved my swing to the point I can hit drives around 300 or more if I try to, my 9 iron is now 155 and my 5 iron is about 205. The slice is gone and I'm hitting penetrating shots that stop quickly. I've done most of my improvement in the last month or two, in which I've hit about 1,800 balls with my full swing since 4/21 when I got a range membership. Probably only about 30 hours of really good, immersive, regular and consistent practice without weeks in between sessions like the first 2 years I occasionally played. I'm now hitting a controlled draw, with lots of height, center contact, lots of compression and speed and the divot after the ball. (Turns out range mats don't mark your clubs unless you hit them before the ball. Even hitting 50 shots with one club, hitting down aggressively won't do much. Range balls will also stop on a real green most of the time if you strike them well, and you can almost always tell if one will fly straight or if it's damaged. All stuff I learned from this practice.)

As it happens, my grouping with a 5 iron is a lot better looking than his as well. I've been taking the opposite approach to his plan, practicing mostly full swing and only spending between half and 10% of my practice time around the greens as I've been trying to iron out my swing lately. I think the improvements to my full swing have carried over to the short game, however, especially the plane and release. Just haven't been able to play much at all, so it's tough to quantify progress.

I've been practicing for closer to 400 hours since I started playing than 4,000. Yet I can still outdrive Dan by about 50 yards after falling out of bed without being what I consider an elite athlete or over 6 feet. Hitting up is part of it, but I can still carry my 3 iron off the ground farther than most of his drives and certainly my hybrid beats even his longest. There's also the fact that the fairway is 50 yards or wider and he can barely keep his drives in, which he needs to do to get by in competition with so little distance... His mechanics are lousy, plain and simple. He only hits his 5 iron 170, about the average for the LPGA. Then there's the fact he only hits his 5 iron to a height of 55 feet. That alone makes it nearly impossible to play good golf on a long course, especially with tournament greens. Maybe he can putt, that is certainly nice, but it keeps him out of the 90s rather than getting him under 70.

I'd have to ask the following of Dan:

-Can he hit 5 balls showing a divot after the ball?

-Can he present the proper dynamic loft to the ball to hit an effective shot?

-Can he control his trajectory?

-Does his ball stop on the green?

-How many out of the 5 keys does he have?

-Does he think he can get to scratch, let alone a touring pro without these abilities?

All those abilities are totally technique, not like having a 30 inch vertical. You can do all of them on a 10 yard pitch shot if you want to. Even a guy with one leg can do most of them pretty decently. The girls on the LPGA can do all of them, old men with good swings can do all of them, a 14 year old kid can do them if they're exceptionally well taught. Not everyone who can hit the ball well is a great golfer, though.

So I am able to surpass his ballstriking ability (and therefore scoring potential) by a fair bit within a tenth of the amount of practice. I don't consider myself especially talented, and I don't outscore him. I could probably do decently against him in match play though. I'm certainly not great, but being able to learn that much faster with no instruction must mean either talent does exist and therefore he sucks, or that I'm a better instructor than his, which means his instructor or his plan really sucks. I think he shouldn't necessarily give up, but he needs to change his swing if he wants to consistently play well. I buy into the existence of talent, if only as a mentality, and I certainly buy into the 65/25/10 ratio for practice as a general starting point.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

So I am able to surpass his ballstriking ability (and therefore scoring potential) by a fair bit within a tenth of the amount of practice. I don't consider myself especially talented, and I don't outscore him. I could probably do decently against him in match play though. I'm certainly not great, but being able to learn that much faster with no instruction must mean either talent does exist and therefore he sucks, or that I'm a better instructor than his, which means his instructor or his plan really sucks. I think he shouldn't necessarily give up, but he needs to change his swing if he wants to consistently play well. I buy into the existence of talent, if only as a mentality, and I certainly buy into the 65/25/10 ratio for practice as a general starting point.

He hits it short and wide. his short game is good

however he have lots to do with the ball striking improvement.
Learning and especially instruction is crucial for improvement and if it isnt good, it shows up.

In regard to the language and talent, here is one described in the book who learned 28 or so languages fluently and he started at age 19 with his second language.

Dynamic_Learning_by_Robert_B_Dilts_and_Todd_A_Epstein

[ApocG10]

Originally Posted by David in FL

You've been aiming to be a tour pro "soon" for the 3 years you've been on this forum.  Your stated goals 3 years ago was to be down to scratch within 4 months and to qualify for the tour.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/31415/your-2010-golf-goals-official-thread/180#post_433173

Why aren't you there?  Heck, as an 8 hcp, why are you still struggling to break 80?

We all have goals, hopes, dreams and aspirations.  Some realistic, some not.  I'd like to imagine myself a tour player, but I simply don't have the natural talent or the physical body to do it.  That's not defeatist, it's pragmatic.

That doesn't change the fact that the whole 'learning a language by 14 or you can never be a native speaker' is absolutely a myth.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by David in FL

You've been aiming to be a tour pro "soon" for the 3 years you've been on this forum.  Your stated goals 3 years ago was to be down to scratch within 4 months and to qualify for the tour.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/31415/your-2010-golf-goals-official-thread/180#post_433173

Why aren't you there?  Heck, as an 8 hcp, why are you still struggling to break 80?

We all have goals, hopes, dreams and aspirations.  Some realistic, some not.  I'd like to imagine myself a tour player, but I simply don't have the natural talent or the physical body to do it.  That's not defeatist, it's pragmatic.

Nice you asked.

I needed a hobby so I set out to find out how to do that.

I found that most golf instruction pretty much is bad.

digging trough all that waste to find out what its about allowed me to teach a tour level pro to hit it with 4 % dispersion pattern PGA tour average is 8% with a 5i, and to hit it 300yard carry+

what did you do the last 3 years?

In the process of doing that, at age 49 currently and having chronic fatigue symdrom (CFS) the last 13 years (google it) I simply put cant work at the speed a kid can or someone half my age.
I just find most people attack without having any definition and actual facts behind them, due to them believe for some reason they cant do it so they project that is then true for everyone else also (not so much).

I find such attitude limited to hold and your free to have any attitude you like but beliving things like fairies or james bond dont mean they actually exist out there.

I worked with people who had 5 brain tumors, people who wanted to kill themselves, and some that doctors couldnt help, some of them while meeting me are living good healthy lives in spite of what the doctors told them. I come from such a field of people who had you know real problems about life and was told no help was there for them and I was able to find a way for them sometimes and sometimes not, however they were better off after anyhow.
I survived cancer when I was 13 which left me with no thyriodea gland and a lifetime of medication and after looking someone in the eyes with 5 brain tumors and as they are writing their will down its always nice to be asked questions that people have no idea about anyhow,

I seen people doing things and learning things that you wont accept in your lifetime.

Talent is a word for those that dont understand.

Anyhow, to answer your question which you so nicely asked, I am doing fine with the progress as my swing mechanics is now better than ever and reaching the level I sought 3 years ago.

Today I had a breaktrough with it, thanks for asking as I hit 3 balls within a yard at 140 yards.
Now even if that is a fluke and pure coincidence and just shows talent isnt needed if one is lucky and have accidents.
If that progress shows anything to the level of game I am able to do this summer, well only time will tell right?

I end this with, if people only view where you come from and where your at, well then my lad you be going back in time pretty much.

The future is mine.

[notsohard]

Originally Posted by garybbq

wow seriously? so even with proper instruction and practice less then 50% of men 30ish years of age in reasonable shape cant cary over 250?

after 40 years of golf in many forms i would take that figure closer to 70%.

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I play a lot of golf and I don't see many men carrying it 250 and I live in CO, the ball flies here. I see a lot of guys that think they carry it 250 that are terrible at math. They make the claim when their ball is 40 yds south of the 150 marker on a 400 yd par 4.

exactly......and lets not forget the extra 30-50yds they are getting by not teeing off the championship tee, which they forget in their "golf math"

[David in FL]

That doesn't change the fact that the whole 'learning a language by 14 or you can never be a native speaker' is absolutely a myth.

I never said that. What I disagree with is the whole "anyone can do anything" if they only try B.S.

[David in FL]

Nice you asked. I needed a hobby so I set out to find out how to do that. I found that most golf instruction pretty much is bad. digging trough all that waste to find out what its about allowed me to teach a tour level pro to hit it with 4 % dispersion pattern PGA tour average is 8% with a 5i, and to hit it 300yard carry+ what did you do the last 3 years? In the process of doing that, at age 49 currently and having chronic fatigue symdrom (CFS) the last 13 years (google it) I simply put cant work at the speed a kid can or someone half my age. I just find most people attack without having any definition and actual facts behind them, due to them believe for some reason they cant do it so they project that is then true for everyone else also (not so much). I find such attitude limited to hold and your free to have any attitude you like but beliving things like fairies or james bond dont mean they actually exist out there. I worked with people who had 5 brain tumors, people who wanted to kill themselves, and some that doctors couldnt help, some of them while meeting me are living good healthy lives in spite of what the doctors told them. I come from such a field of people who had you know real problems about life and was told no help was there for them and I was able to find a way for them sometimes and sometimes not, however they were better off after anyhow. I survived cancer when I was 13 which left me with no thyriodea gland and a lifetime of medication and after looking someone in the eyes with 5 brain tumors and as they are writing their will down its always nice to be asked questions that people have no idea about anyhow, I seen people doing things and learning things that you wont accept in your lifetime. Talent is a word for those that dont understand. Anyhow, to answer your question which you so nicely asked, I am doing fine with the progress as my swing mechanics is now better than ever and reaching the level I sought 3 years ago. Today I had a breaktrough with it, thanks for asking as I hit 3 balls within a yard at 140 yards. Now even if that is a fluke and pure coincidence and just shows talent isnt needed if one is lucky and have accidents. If that progress shows anything to the level of game I am able to do this summer, well only time will tell right? I end this with, if people only view where you come from and where your at, well then my lad you be going back in time pretty much. The future is mine.

I'm sorry. I read that 3 times and I still have no idea what you mean..... ....are you going to become a tour pro, or not? When.....soon? After all, only the desire stands in your way. Talent has nothing to do with it. :-\

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by David in FL

I'm sorry. I read that 3 times and I still have no idea what you mean.....

....are you going to become a tour pro, or not? When.....soon? After all, only the desire stands in your way. Talent has nothing to do with it.

I think he gave you the list of reasons why he's not a pro yet, none of which he believes have anything to do with talent.  At age 49 and still an 8 I'd say his chances are slim but I wish him luck.   Talent / genetics are a major factor imo on how far someone can go.

[David in FL]

I think he gave you the list of reasons why he's not a pro yet, none of which he believes have anything to do with talent.  At age 49 and still an 8 I'd say his chances are slim but I wish him luck.   Talent / genetics are a major factor imo on how far someone can go.

There's the rub. He believes that talent has nothing to do with it...... I have reasons that I'm not a tour pro too. Number one, is that I suck at this game! :-)

[ApocG10]

Talet certainly counts. If it didn't, I would certainly be  an NHL player, possibly one of th ebest, with one of the best coachs around, my dad, and my own full sized ice surface behind the ice, along with weeks of hockey camp every summer. I was on the ce a minimum of 3 ours a day, 8 in camp, fow an average of about 47 weeks a year of practicing and playing competitive hickey, from 4yo, right up to about 26, when I left the semi-pros to take a respctable job.

Im talented, I put in the hours, and I was still borderline. I didn'y push too had to get drated, I hd found a great woman and a ccareer I loved. But it takes more tha 10000 hours, and some talent to be a pro at anything in the top levels of sport.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by ApocG10

Talet certainly counts. If it didn't, I would certainly be  an NHL player, possibly one of th ebest, with one of the best coachs around, my dad, and my own full sized ice surface behind the ice, along with weeks of hockey camp every summer. I was on the ce a minimum of 3 ours a day, 8 in camp, fow an average of about 47 weeks a year of practicing and playing competitive hickey, from 4yo, right up to about 26, when I left the semi-pros to take a respctable job.

Im talented, I put in the hours, and I was still borderline. I didn'y push too had to get drated, I hd found a great woman and a ccareer I loved. But it takes more tha 10000 hours, and some talent to be a pro at anything in the top levels of sport.

10000hours is a reference number, any sport its seldom about the mechanical technique stuff, as many basket players who succeed can handle 200 days of travel, 80 games, any distractions like groupies and drugs on tour.

Those players that have trouble leaving home, are easily seduced by the success often goes away in spite of being talented for their sport due to them lacked "talent" of you know a good night sleep, no alcohol and girls on room during the tour.
I just find that when I meet athletes they have pretty much no clue what to do to bring out their best game every time.

and they have won olympic medals even.

anything people bring up about talent you can learn to do, unless its about height or such you know variables.

its just easier for people to belive in secrets and mystical ideas like talent.

anyhow, Dan is a short hitter and would need to increase those numbers a bit to make it a bit easier. 40% gir is really low.

He spins out way to much.

.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by David in FL

There's the rub. He believes that talent has nothing to do with it......

I have reasons that I'm not a tour pro too. Number one, is that I suck at this game!

No wonder you suck due to golf instruction pretty much is clueless in general its not your fault.

I find it funny when I see a PGA well known trainer who people think is good, train someone and my brain is like why do he teach that way as it makes it hard to learn and do?

I talked to some trainers also, and I talk to players also, once you know as I done added 50 yards to someones driver and they hit it long in regard to others in 5 minutes, you have to ask what they are doing in golf.

I see so many posts about what happens inside your head before the impact and I go, dont they know once you start the swing its automatic and no consious interuption is needed?
why do people insist they can control things in a swing action that happens in a second or so that is beyond their own perception during the sequence?

oh yes, your golf instructor said you can do it.

Talent is a conceptual idea people use when they have no clue and make guesses.

its more comforting for people that fail and blame their lack of talent for the reason insetad of something else like drug abuse, or being lazy or simply listening to bad instruction.

In regard to Dan, he is doing a plan, wont mean its a good one.

He works a bit to much, he has bad mechanics IMO, but a good short game, so once he get the ball striking going which is unlikely he be dropping a lot of shots due to the rest of his game is good and solid. he struggles now due to being short and wild.

due to a lack of sequence and pivot.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by grubby98

I honestly believe people do not know how good the tour pros actually are.  I play a lot with the head pro at my local course, his brother is in my normal foursome, and he is very good.  I mean yesterday he came out on shitty weather, no warm-up except one practice ball and shot a 66 on a 69/123.  It was cold, rainy and windy 10-15mph.  He played bad and with no warm up still shot -6.  He has only qualified for a few web.com and some senior tour events last couple of years.   He says when he was younger he was even better, but only sniffed the mini tours. When they say these guys are good, they really mean the are really really really good!!!

Dan shoots mid to high 70s with lots of 80s at his home course.  He would get laughed off the range before he even got to the course at a professional event.  My pro says if you cant shoot mid 60s on your bad days at your home course, then you are not even close to being a tour player.

Golf is a game of margin for error and not making mistakes.

once you do that, your solid and good.

tour pro has a 10 shot difference between the best round and worst round.

Padraig Harrington 3 time major winner shot 80 in wells fargo.

tour pro´s good? a 3 time major winner he still shot the same score as Dan.

yes different coruses, different set up, still if those guys are so good, why shoot 80 especially since you won a few times even 3 majors.

did his talent became tired?