Who can defend Sergio?

[Chas]

Why do you think he was aiming to the right of the pin, rather than at or a tad left of it? He has birdied that hole before, including to win the tournament in 2008, and was running out of chances to win - only two holes left. So he decided to not aim for the middle of the green like everyone else. Some of you guys really amuse me. Never in your lives will you even remotely approach being in such a winnable situation in an event like that, yet you claim to know exactly what he should have done and what actually happened there, down to his state of mind. Most entertaining I must say. Dream on guys .... but keep your day jobs.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Chas

Well I can agree that self-sabotage can happen, the mind is a complex and mysterious thing, but I don't see the evidence for it in that particular case (the 17th on Sunday). As I said, there is good evidence for the opposite, I.e rational risk-taking in an ultra-high reward situation. For Sergio to have bested Tiger in that tournament, which was a real possibility in his mind, was the sort of inducement that the likes of you and I can only imagine.

But I do get your hypothesis and of course it is possible. And of course he wouldn't know - true for everybody in theory.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll Google SoCal Golfers Group and play in the tournament - it will be my first! I played The Vineyard in Escondido yesterday and read something about it there.

I agree with you here.

Here is a pretty good example - one that you, like me, may have bitter memories of.  3 or 4 years ago the Chargers were playing in Denver and were leading by 7 with time ticking away.  Long story short, due to a blatantly bad no fumble call on Jay Cutler by Ed Hochuli (so bad that the rules were changed in the off season) Denver got a second life with no time on the clock and put one in the endzone.  Instead of making the "smart" play and kicking the extra point to send it into overtime, Shanahan decided to go for 2 and win (or lose) it right then and there.  They made it, they won.  Shanahan was praised to kingdom come for his "gutsy" and "smart" call right there.  (And rightfully so, because its a gamble to rely on OT, which can essentially be determined by a coin flip sometimes)  But had they not made it, he would have been crucified.

The same reasoning could be applied to Sergio.  Perhaps he was playing the odds, knowing that a playoff with Tiger was a coin flip proposition at best.  Who knows.  (Heck, lets have some real fun here.  The playoff would be at 17, so perhaps he's thinking "I have to birdie it now, or birdie it in 40 minutes with Tiger standing next to me yanking clubs out of his bag left and right trying to distract me while I'm trying to hit."  Birdie-ing it now would be a lot easier, so let's do it)

I don't think the "self sabotage" idea applies to Sergio specifically last Sunday at 17, but moreso to him and his history.

No need to google it ... the group I'm talking about is on here. :)  Here's the thread for our upcoming outing ... http://thesandtrap.com/t/66256/thesandtrap-socal-golfers-summer-2013-outing-discussion/120_30#post_844790

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by Chas

Why do you think he was aiming to the right of the pin, rather than at or a tad left of it? He has birdied that hole before, including to win the tournament in 2008, and was running out of chances to win - only two holes left. So he decided to not aim for the middle of the green like everyone else.

Some of you guys really amuse me. Never in your lives will you even remotely approach being in such a winnable situation in an event like that, yet you claim to know exactly what he should have done and what actually happened there, down to his state of mind. Most entertaining I must say.

Dream on guys .... but keep your day jobs.

Hmm, maybe because he hit two identical shots that traveled over the water to the right of the pin.  Did he birdie that hole with that pin placement?  No one said a birdy at 17 was impossible ever, but that was a sucker pin placement, you don't have to be a pro to know that.

You can get a job as Sergio's PR guy since you seem to make as many excuses for him as he does himself.

[Chas]

So you're saying that Sergio always hits a ball EXACTLY where he's aiming. You must think he's an even better player than I do. Have you never slightly pushed a club, any club, twice in a row? The guy is not Superman. I make no excuses for his whining and 'chip-on-shoulder' attitude at times, and have said so repeatedly on this forum. Perhaps you didn't read those posts, let's hope so or there must be comprehension difficulties. The phrase "sucker pin placement" is irrelevant in this context, as you should know if you follow pro golf on Sundays and actually understand what you're seeing. You should reserve it for relative hackers like you and me. You may not appreciate it but to win a tourney like this, sometimes big risks must be take towards the end. If you're sitting on a lead it's different story of course. Like I say, most entertaining. I sure don't come to threads like this for insights into winning the game of golf.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by Chas

So you're saying that Sergio always hits a ball EXACTLY where he's aiming. You must think he's an even better player than I do. Have you never slightly pushed a club, any club, twice in a row? The guy is not Superman.

I make no excuses for his whining and 'chip-on-shoulder' attitude at times, and have said so repeatedly on this forum. Perhaps you didn't read those posts, let's hope so or there must be comprehension difficulties.

The phrase "sucker pin placement" is irrelevant in this context, as you should know if you follow pro golf on Sundays and actually understand what you're seeing. You should reserve it for relative hackers like you and me. You may not appreciate it but to win a tourney like this, sometimes big risks must be take towards the end. If you're sitting on a lead it's different story of course.

Like I say, most entertaining. I sure don't come to threads like this for insights into winning the game of golf.

Obviously you want to position Sergio as the hero going for the win on 17, so no sense in trying to change your mind.

[Chas]

What does that mean? I'm not "positioning" anything, just describing the situation as it developed. Obviously, he was making a high risk shot because of the potential rewards. For a living I conduct risk-reward type of analyses in Pharma using various statistical methods. False positive and false negative outcomes etc etc. Google "Receiver Operating Characteristic" and you'll get the idea. Just considering risk alone completely misses the point. Tell me you understand that, please .....

[zipazoid]

Look, if Sergio was trying to "win" the tournament at 17, ostensibly by stiffing it close & making a bird, then he gets points for balls...but loses those points for stupidity. Virtually every pro will tell you to get your three & get the hell out of there. And further, if you want to hit it close, you aim 20 feet left & let the ridge feed it to the hole. You don't aim AT the hole. But let's, just for the hell of it, go with that - that he actually aimed at the hole. Okay...he came up 30 feet short. With a wedge. It was a horrible shot. And not to mention Tiger had yet to play 17.

Hey. I'm not a pro, but even I know in that situation, you post the 3, leave the green still tied for the lead & throw the pressure onto Tiger.

So this whole 'Sergio was trying to win the tournament' thing is bogus. He hit a horrible shot at the worst possible time. Some would call that choking. I won't be as rude - instead I will say he exhibited either horrible course management (if he was aiming at the hole) or horrible execution.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Chas

No, the responsibility is on you guys to demonstrate that Sergio "sabotages" himself. How many pro tour events has he won? The irony of what happened on the 17th escapes many here apparently. He's a talented risk-taker, more like Phil than most other players, without his short game but usually better off the tee.

I don't have a responsibility to "demonstrate" anything. I simply said it was possible. It is.

Annika Sorenstam and Moe Norman would consciously sabotage themselves (Annika obviously realized how stupid that was). Some people are simply more comfortable being the bridesmaid. Self sabotage happens all the time. In relationships. In careers. In jobs. People are afraid of higher expectations, and their inability to meet them. Of being outside their comfort zone.

Originally Posted by Chas

Some of you guys really amuse me. Never in your lives will you even remotely approach being in such a winnable situation in an event like that, yet you claim to know exactly what he should have done and what actually happened there, down to his state of mind. Most entertaining I must say.

Chas, stop being an ******* or you can take a week off.

P.S. Zip, Tiger had already played 17.

[zipazoid]

Quote:

P.S. Zip, Tiger had already played 17.

Oh crap. You're right. Don't know why I thought he was behind Sergio.

Still doesn't change the 'Sergio was trying to win it on 17' mindset. I don't believe that for a minute. He hit a push-chunk PW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas

Some of you guys really amuse me. Never in your lives will you even remotely approach being in such a winnable situation in an event like that, yet you claim to know exactly what he should have done and what actually happened there, down to his state of mind. Most entertaining I must say.

Chas, this ain't rocket science. You're on the 17th tee tied for the lead. You got a hole where, really, only bad things can happen with all that water. You get your 3 & get out of there. That's how you play it. That's what virtually every pro will tell you. Try to birdie 18 to win it.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Look, if Sergio was trying to "win" the tournament at 17, ostensibly by stiffing it close & making a bird, then he gets points for balls...but loses those points for stupidity.

No, you don't.  You only lose the points for stupidity if you don't pull it off.  This is the problem I have with the Monday morning quarterbacking we all like to do.  (This is a collective 'we' that applies to the entire world of sports, announcers and fans alike, not just golf or TST)  Nobody is criticizing the Swede (already forgot his name, and going with the moniker one of ya'll gave him earlier in the week ;)) for going right of the hole.  Why?  Because he pulled it off.

We should either be criticizing them for the stupidity regardless of the outcome (we don't, never have, never will - fail and you're an idiot, succeed and you're brave) or simply criticizing the execution.

I say, good for him for giving it a go, and bad for him for hitting such a poor shot in such a crucial situation.  And, I'm also agreeing with Erik on one possible reason for the poor execution being self sabotage.

P.S.  Just remembered ... it's Lingmerth :)

[carrx]

Originally Posted by albatross

This isn't a discussion about Sergio vs. Tiger this weekend ( I know we already have that thread).  This is just about Sergio.  Just when I try to forget some of his past whining and ridiculous antics (spitting in the cup was the worst of all time), this guy comes out crying and sounds like a huge baby.

And now everyone is saying, wow, it was good of him to talk to the media after his round.  He SHOULD talk to the media after his round.  Part of the reason he was so cordial on Sunday, is because he probably realized what a child he sounded like earlier in the weekend.  I think him making such a big deal of the incident, had to have distracted him this weekend.  He puts these own obstacles in his way.  Other players might have been pissed, but they would have shook it off (unless it was Bubba or something).

I'm just genuinely curious about those of you that like Sergio, how you can root for this guy?  I agree he's got a great swing and at times he can be humble, but it always ruins it for me when he gets in his "poor me", nothing ever works out for me phase.  That's why this guy hasn't and won't win a major championship.

I'm a golf fan, not necesssarily a Sergio fan, but I can easily bring myself to defend his words.  If you actually watched the interview, he didn't blow Tiger up.  He acknowledged it was a crowd reaction to Tiger that distracted him, and he fairly suggested that, given the predictable state of affairs that comes with playing in front of huge crowds (ala Tiger), that perhaps TW should have been more sensitive to the possibility of interfering with his playing partner.

The media made way more out of it than was called for, as they made more of Tiger's reply.  Sergio was absolutely right.  Tiger didn't mean any harm (at least, not based on my opinion having watched the video), and Sergio had time to step off.  I've had it happen to me, where I hear a noise, don't immediately react, but allow myself to lose focus by acknowledging the sound before making a swing.

We all play in groups with guys who aren't sensitive to the other players around them.  Typically that only includes hitting out of turn, or making a racket with the golf cart at the wrong time.  For a guy who plays with the amount of buzz that Tiger does, he absolutely should be aware of the players in his group, and when they're hitting.  Folks love to embrace the media narrative of Sergio as a baby, but in this case I'm not buying it.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

No, you don't.  You only lose the points for stupidity if you don't pull it off.  This is the problem I have with the Monday morning quarterbacking we all like to do.  (This is a collective 'we' that applies to the entire world of sports, announcers and fans alike, not just golf or TST)  Nobody is criticizing the Swede (already forgot his name, and going with the moniker one of ya'll gave him earlier in the week ;)) for going right of the hole.  Why?  Because he pulled it off.

We should either be criticizing them for the stupidity regardless of the outcome (we don't, never have, never will - fail and you're an idiot, succeed and you're brave) or simply criticizing the execution.

I say, good for him for giving it a go, and bad for him for hitting such a poor shot in such a crucial situation.  And, I'm also agreeing with Erik on one possible reason for the poor execution being self sabotage.

P.S.  Just remembered ... it's Lingmerth :)

If Lingmerth tried to go for the pin or to the right of it, he made a poor decision too imo.  Some might say his decision was worse given he had just watched Sergio hit his ball in the water trying to do the same thing.  The difference is no one thought Lingmerth would be there at the end, so he was in the bonus by holding his own against Sergio and Tiger for as long as he did.  And yes he pulled off the shot, which was an amazing shot, if that was his intent given the pressure he was under, but still stupid.

I don't consider this Monday morning QB'ing, I predicted Sergio was going to self destruct on Friday and was amazed it took until the 17th hole on Sunday for it to happen.  When I watched it live, Jamo, Zeph and a few others were in the TST Chat discussing him putting it in the water - so none of us were shocked.   Sergio was T2 going into 17, he put a 2nd ball in the water on 17 then get another wet on 18 to finish T8, that's choking / self destructing in my book.

[albatross]

And now add Sergio's "fried chicken remark" from last night to the list of things that are inexcusable. So apparently he's not only a whiner who spits in cups, but a bigot taboot.

[Joe Jordan]

Come on that fried chicken remark was not that bad. Okay, maybe a tad racist, but who really cares? I mean, how many times has Tiger said something negative in regards to Garcia? This whole "controversy" is stupid.

[Stretch]

I'm sorry, but from a professional communications standpoint a little bit racist is like a little bit pregnant. Sergio stepped on his own dick and -- whatever is in his heart -- now gets to spend the rest of his immediate future apologizing profusely for what actually came out of his mouth.

Tiger, meanwhile, is laughing his (nonspecific ethnicity) ass off.

[Ernest Jones]

I once had a girlfriend who was only a "tad" pregnant. I dumped her anyway.

[jamo]

Tiger, meanwhile, is laughing his (nonspecific ethnicity) ass off.

The most ironic part of this whole thing may be the fact that ESPN is making Tiger look like a saint.

[Spyder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamo


The most ironic part of this whole thing may be the fact that ESPN is making Tiger look like a saint.

I honestly think the most entertaining part is that in ESPN's article about this topic, they felt that they had to put in quotes:

Quote:

"Fried chicken" references are associated with racial stereotypes of African-Americans.

As if anyone with 1/10th of a functioning brain in today's society needed to have this explained to them?