Pace of Play - Etiquette Question

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Good tirade. I grow weary of this whole pace of play issue. To me any round in 4.5 or under is a non-issue. When I hear people stating that any 4 should complete a round in 3.5, or boasting that their 4some can finish in 2.5, that is an issue. Would you go to a nice restaurant with the sole purpose of eating as fast as possible? Do you go fishing simply to get done as fast as possible? Why would any moderately sane person do ANYTHING enjoyable with the sole purpose of finishing as fast as possible???? I just don't get it.

What you and Wisguy fail to realize, is that a competent two-some playing in 2.5 hours is NOT playing as fast as possible, in fact, it's not rushed at all.  That's simply playing ready golf, keeping the ball in play, and not dilly dallying around.....

If you prefer to spend the whole day out there, that's up to you, and I won't criticize you.  As long as you're not holding up the rest of the course, and allow those that play faster to play through when there's room to do so.

But again......we're getting off topic.  The OP asked a specific question and the answer remains.  If someone is playing faster than you, no matter how fast you think you're playing and there's room to do so, it's just courteous to let them through.  As an added benefit, you won't feel pressured to play faster than your own personal preference either.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Wisguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

Exactly this.

A decent 2-ball can get around in under 2 1/2 pretty easily, without killing themselves.  Let 'em through, and enjoy your game.  You'll all be happier.

Exactly not.

Commenting on length of time to complete a round is like commenting on whether an 82 is a "good score." The only intelligent answer one can give is "that depends." It depends on the course layout, it depends on the course conditions, it depends on the weather, it depends on who or what is on the course at the time (i.e. crowded courses play slower, scoring in a tournament is usually more difficult than a practice round), it depends on the golfer.

Yesterday my two buddies and I "wasted" a lot of time searching for balls.  Not because we were searching 70 yards to the right of left of the fairway in the woods or deep junk, but most typically on shots that were within 10-30 feet of the edge of the fairway (i.e. not awful shots).  And we made sure someone else was looking on every tee shot, to help locate balls.  The rough was so thick, right off the fairway, that sometimes we'd have to be nearly on top of the ball before spotting it.  One time I had to walk over and show my friend his ball that was literally four feet in front of him.  A few times we had to spend significant time finding balls that were on drives that had been acknowledged as a "Nice drive!" because they took an odd hop out of the fairway into the rough or ran through the fairway on a dogleg.  We also had that weird combination of haziness and bright sunshine that resulted in quite a few drives being immediately lost from sight up against the greyish white haze in the sky.

I suspect that some of this "I can finish a round in x minutes, x-10 if I speed up" boasting has a lot more in common with the "I hit 300 yard drives all the time" bragging that online golfers claim, than with the real world.  I once sat down and did a list of all of the things that happen during the course of playing a hole and how long they take and the more extreme boasts of how fast someone could play are just that, non-credible boasting; unfortunately, I paused for a day or two in my calculations before finailzing them and they got lost in cyberspace.  If I have a free half hour and the inclination, I'll redo the list and post it here.

To the handful of arrogant speed golfers who always spew some snide little comment on pace of play in these threads, I have to ask if you wouldn't be happier bowling or playing chess - you seem to have a real problem with being outdoors and it seems like your primary goal is to get the hell back back indoors (to the bar?) as fast as you possibly can.  Does it make you feel extra-manly to brag about how fast a golfer you are and how slow everyone else must be if they cannot match your alleged times to complete a round?  You pace-of-play-aholics are as annoying as a tailgater following seven feet behind on the highway.  Golf pace of play is not an all-or-nothing, black-or-white, play-rushed-hurry-hurry-golf-or-you're-a-problem standard,   Having a relaxed time enjoying a beautiful day outdoors is not incompatible with keeping a reasonable pace of play.

Hello?  What?  If I'm going to spend an entire beautiful day playing golf, I want it to be 36 holes.  These days that is rarely possible on a weekend.

I have never said that I hurry, and I certainly don't need a lectures about it.  You will never hear me boast about playing in 3 hours as a fourball.  I play promptly and that's a whole different thing.  I'm ready to play when it's my turn.  If I'm first to play after the tee shot, I have my GPS in hand as I approach the ball, I already have a couple of ideas for club selection.  I don't hem and haw and scratch my head and throw grass in the air.  If I'm not first to play, then I will have what I need ready to go by the time it's my turn unless my ball is directly in line with guy who's playing his stroke.  When I'm on the opposite side of the fairway from the guy who is playing, I will often start my less than 15 second routine after he has addressed the ball, but before he has even hit.  In none of this am I rushing.  By being prepared and being proactive, I can play each shot in just seconds without ever hurrying.  I still have time to carry on a conversation and enjoy the day with my friends in a leisurely fashion.  I have played a round in 4 hours with a fivesome, and none of us was rushing.

You also mention busy courses, which is another issue entirely.  I don't expect to play as quickly when the course is full.  I should still be able to play at the course's recommended pace, which in my (40 years) experience is never more than 4½ hours (which is posted as a maximum acceptable pace, not an optimum or target pace).  However, this rarely happens under weekend conditions because too many players go to the course with your philosophy that whatever they do is fast enough.  That simply isn't acceptable.  If you are keeping up with the group in front of you, then you are playing fast enough.  If not, then you aren't.  If there is a gap ahead of you, then you should be following good pace assisting procedures like what I mentioned above to ensure that your group doesn't become "the problem".

In today's market, weekend golf can no longer be viewed as a leisurely walk (or drive) in the park.  If you are just out to soak up Mother Nature, there are more appropriate ways to do that.

[dak4n6]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Good tirade. I grow weary of this whole pace of play issue. To me any round in 4.5 or under is a non-issue. When I hear people stating that any 4 should complete a round in 3.5, or boasting that their 4some can finish in 2.5, that is an issue. Would you go to a nice restaurant with the sole purpose of eating as fast as possible? Do you go fishing simply to get done as fast as possible? Why would any moderately sane person do ANYTHING enjoyable with the sole purpose of finishing as fast as possible???? I just don't get it.

What you and Wisguy fail to realize, is that a competent two-some playing in 2.5 hours is NOT playing as fast as possible, in fact, it's not rushed at all.  That's simply playing ready golf, keeping the ball in play, and not dilly dallying around.....

If you prefer to spend the whole day out there, that's up to you, and I won't criticize you.  As long as you're not holding up the rest of the course, and allow those that play faster to play through when there's room to do so.

But again......we're getting off topic.  The OP asked a specific question and the answer remains.  If someone is playing faster than you, no matter how fast you think you're playing and there's room to do so, it's just courteous to let them through.  As an added benefit, you won't feel pressured to play faster than your own personal preference either.

Yes Dave I know, and I let folks through if I'm playing with my wife and kids and we're having issues, and myself I am actually a very fast player (OK, ready for some boasting - I have played 2 hr rounds walking with no one in front), but here is my issue: I DON'T FREAK OUT WHEN I HAVE TO PLAY A 4.5 HR ROUND (or even a 5 hr round),  and I don't see why others do. That's it. I'm not advocating slow play, I'm advocating calming down and not making it the biggest evil of the modern world.

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Good tirade. I grow weary of this whole pace of play issue. To me any round in 4.5 or under is a non-issue. When I hear people stating that any 4 should complete a round in 3.5, or boasting that their 4some can finish in 2.5, that is an issue. Would you go to a nice restaurant with the sole purpose of eating as fast as possible? Do you go fishing simply to get done as fast as possible? Why would any moderately sane person do ANYTHING enjoyable with the sole purpose of finishing as fast as possible???? I just don't get it.

I agree that it's nice to enjoy things but all of that is possible with a 4 hr round. That's half a work day. When you break it down just under a .25/hr per hole. I can't think of many instances where I'd want to be on one hole longer than that. 15 minutes can be a long time. When I am staring at the clock waiting to run for the door so I can get out and play 9 after work that last 15 minutes is torture. Using the food analogy same thing when I have to wait longer than usual because the kitchen flubbed my order.

Something nice is easily disturbed when it drags out longer than expected. I usually not in a hurry to get off the course and circumstances play a big part. If I head out for an evening 9 and hit the first tee at 6:10PM and it drags out until 8 because I'm socializing with my parents on a deserted course it can be a blast. If I'm just getting to 7th tee at 8 and there's a chance I won't finish because I've been stuck behind two slow groups chasing lost balls every hole not so much. The difference is my pace has become dictated by theirs and they're not taking measures to ensure the flow hasn't been disrupted.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Good tirade. I grow weary of this whole pace of play issue. To me any round in 4.5 or under is a non-issue. When I hear people stating that any 4 should complete a round in 3.5, or boasting that their 4some can finish in 2.5, that is an issue. Would you go to a nice restaurant with the sole purpose of eating as fast as possible? Do you go fishing simply to get done as fast as possible? Why would any moderately sane person do ANYTHING enjoyable with the sole purpose of finishing as fast as possible???? I just don't get it.

I agree, I don't want to feel rushed during a round because some people have a preconceived number in their head for how long a round should take.  Those saying the OP is playing too slow without knowing the course layout, whether he's walking or riding and factoring in his 25 handicap seems like we're going a bit overboard in setting pace of play standards that don't hold up on every course.

My home course has a number of holes with large gaps between the green and tee boxes.  Walkers with double digit handicaps would be challenged to get through a round in less that 3 hours unless they sprint from green to tee box, which I've never seen anyone do.  Golf is supposed to be recreational and enjoyable isn't it?

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by ShawnPennington

That said i seem to end up in situations alot where i end up with a player, or twosome that seem to be ALWAYS right on my tail or on the tee box by the time im hitting my second shot....... so either they are playing just as fast as I am, or im finding that alot of players who are just playing completely recreationally with little care as to how well they play.....are picking up missed putts, foot wedges, etc etc.  which is totally fine.....

[Wisguy]

To the handful of speed golfers who get their panties in a massive twist on every one of these too-frequent pace of play threads, I have some suggstions:

1)  Get your *ss out of bed and get that 5:54 a.m. tee time so that you can play as fast as you want.

2)  If you have a tee time at 9:00 a.m. on a Saturday or Sunday, you will have more than a 4 hour round at most courses - accept that and deal with it or don't play at peak weekend hours.

3)  See if there's a private golf club in your area with a minimum handicap for members and join there to avoid the high-handicap rifraff clogging up the course.

4)  Call around to courses and ask the head pro "Say, I'm a really, really impatient guy and I'm looking for a course that does not tolerate even moderately paced play.  Do you have one or more super cranky rangers cruising the course to keep people moving?  I'm looking for a course with a grumpy old bastard ranger who won't hesitate to yell about playing too slowly at a group standing in the middle of the fairway 150 out waiting for the group in front of them to finish putting - you know, the kind of ranger who will tell me 'Nice swing' when he sees me deliberately hitting into the foursome ahead trying to speed up the five backed-up groups in front of me."

5) "Borrow" a few tabs from your kid's Ritalin bottle before you head out to the course.

6)  Buy your own golf cart and add a nitrous burner to it.

and most importantly:

7) STOP YOUR INCESSANT WHINING OR PICK ANOTHER SPORT

Seriously, I can't recall seeing anyone bitch so much about any aspect of any sport or hobby or other enjoyable activity as you several guys do about slow play.   It's almost as if it is physically painful for you to be outside.   You're worse than a pair of little kids in the back seat on a long car ride constantly whining "Are we there yet?  Are we there yet?" and "Jimmy crossed over to my side of the car!"   "Billy stuck his tongue out at me!"

[David in FL]

To the handful of speed golfers who get their panties in a massive twist on every one of these too-frequent pace of play threads, I have some suggstions: 1)  Get your *ss out of bed and get that 5:54 a.m. tee time so that you can play as fast as you want. 2)  If you have a tee time at 9:00 a.m. on a Saturday or Sunday, you will have more than a 4 hour round at most courses - accept that and deal with it or don't play at peak weekend hours. 3)  See if there's a private golf club in your area with a minimum handicap for members and join there to avoid the high-handicap rifraff clogging up the course. 4)  Call around to courses and ask the head pro "Say, I'm a really, really impatient guy and I'm looking for a course that does not tolerate even moderately paced play.  Do you have one or more super cranky rangers cruising the course to keep people moving?  I'm looking for a course with a grumpy old bastard ranger who won't hesitate to yell about playing too slowly at a group standing in the middle of the fairway 150 out waiting for the group in front of them to finish putting - you know, the kind of ranger who will tell me 'Nice swing' when he sees me deliberately hitting into the foursome ahead trying to speed up the five backed-up groups in front of me." 5) "Borrow" a few tabs from your kid's Ritalin bottle before you head out to the course. 6)  Buy your own golf cart and add a nitrous burner to it. and most importantly: 7)  [SIZE=16px] STOP YOUR INCESSANT WHINING OR PICK ANOTHER SPORT [/SIZE] [SIZE=12px]Seriously, I can't recall seeing anyone bitch so much about any aspect of any sport or hobby or other enjoyable activity as you several guys do about slow play.   It's almost as if it is physically painful for you to be outside.   You're worse than a pair of little kids in the back seat on a long car ride constantly whining "Are we there yet?  Are we there yet?" and "Jimmy crossed over to my side of the car!"   "Billy stuck his tongue out at me!"[/SIZE]

None of the foregoing has ANYTHING to do with the OP's question....

[Wisguy]

Originally Posted by David in FL

None of the foregoing has ANYTHING to do with the OP's question....

Don't be ridiculous.  Not every post in a thread must address the original post only.  The OP had a question about pace of play and playing through.  The speed golfers piped in about how little time it should take to finish a round before they label someone a slow golfer.  It's the same in nearly every single thread on this board about pace of play:  one or more of these extremely impatient individuals starts whining about the slow pace of play on golf courses these days.

[dak4n6]

The OP's question was as follows:

Quote:

My question is......is it proper ettiquette to either let them thru, or try to play even faster (when Im already playing fast)....if i let them through then im slowing down my own pace.......   or do i just accept that im just fine cause im ahead of pace, and they'll just have to get over it so i can focus on my game??

....given his average finishing time of 3:15.

C'mon Dave, this question natrually, easily, and necessarily will evolve (or devolve, whichever way you look at it) into a debate on opinions of pace.

I'm in the camp that says if you have a hole open if front of you and the group behind is up your butt, by all means let them play through even if you are on pace for 4 hr. But my camp also says stop getting all bent out of shape about 4 - 4.5 hr rounds enjoying what we supposedly love!!!

[dak4n6]

Originally Posted by Wisguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

None of the foregoing has ANYTHING to do with the OP's question....

Don't be ridiculous.  Not every post in a thread must address the original post only.  The OP had a question about pace of play and playing through.  The speed golfers piped in about how little time it should take to finish a round before they label someone a slow golfer.  It's the same in nearly every single thread on this board about pace of play:  one or more of these extremely impatient individuals starts whining about the slow pace of play on golf courses these days.

Personally I play pretty quickly. However I don't go into anaphylactic shock playing a 4.5 hr round, nor do I decry slow play as the biggest threat to society besides dancing. Why is it we don't see any issues about pace on any other sports forums?

[bplewis24]

Hell, I just played a 6 hour shotgun tournament with my club this weekend.  Teed off around 10:04 and finished about 4PM.  A four hour round would have been music to my ears Saturday.

That is also one of the reasons I won't be playing with this club anymore.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

If I see a single or a twosome flying around the course to catch up to me, I will let them play through.  I'm not going to ruin my round by trying to stay ahead of their 1.5 hour pace, and I'm not going to join up with them to do the same.  There is a sort of mutual benefit to this thing: I'm not going to ruin their round by stubbornly trying to keep my place in front of them, and I'll let them go by so they don't ruin my round.

Finally a post that makes the point! Not letting a faster group through is like travelling in the passing lane going 55 down the interstate just because you can.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Finally a post that makes the point! Not letting a faster group through is like travelling in the passing lane going 55 down the interstate just because you can.

Oh man, don't get me started on those people!

[thescarecrow]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Hell, I just played a 6 hour shotgun tournament with my club this weekend.  Teed off around 10:04 and finished about 4PM.  A four hour round would have been music to my ears Saturday.

That is also one of the reasons I won't be playing with this club anymore.

It sounds like organisers dropped the ball here, how many played?   Shotguns SHOULD move quicker as long as everybody is in position at start time.

[David in FL]

The OP's question was as follows: ....given his average finishing time of 3:15. C'mon Dave, this question natrually, easily, and necessarily will evolve (or devolve, whichever way you look at it) into a debate on opinions of pace. I'm in the camp that says if you have a hole open if front of you and the group behind is up your butt, by all means let them play through even if you are on pace for 4 hr. But my camp also says stop getting all bent out of shape about 4 - 4.5 hr rounds enjoying what we supposedly love!!!

No one in this thread got bent out of shape over anything......except Wisdude. Fourputt commented that a single playing in 3 hours wasn't terribly fast, but only in the context of the OP's initial question. All anyone has said, very nicely I might add, is that if someone is playing faster than someone else, if there's room to do so, everyone will be happier if they're allowed to play through. Again, only Wisdude thinks that he owns the course, and to Hell with anyone else, they can just pick another sport.... I'll refrain from responding to that, no matter how much I'd like to.

[Wisguy]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Finally a post that makes the point! Not letting a faster group through is like travelling in the passing lane going 55 down the interstate just because you can.

That is absolutely correct.  But to draw a related analogy, what some golfers do on crowded courses is the equivalent of tailgating and honking at me when they should be noticing that traffic is doing 55 because a driver who is 30 cars in front of me is the one slowing down all 31 drivers behind him, not because of anything I'm doing.

Which brings me to a tangent.  Years ago I was in fairly heavy traffic going the speed limit when a chick in a Porche started tailgating me and flashing her lights at me, notwithstanding that the problem wasn't me, it was the traffic for half a mile in front.  I cheerfully waived at her which got her even more pissed and when she crept up even closer, thinking this dangerous driving was somehow going to cure all of her commuting problems and get her where she wanted in a hurry.   I gently eased off the gas and slowed down a few mph, then sped up again - a little visual message saying "Stop tailgating me, jerk."  When someone in the right lane exited, she immediately pulled in front thinking to pass, but the guy in front of her slowed down and the guy behind me sped up, trapping her in the slower right lane. A few miles later traffic thinned, I moved over into the now adequately paced right lane, and Porche Chick comes speeding by me in the left lane, slowing down to honk at me and give me the finger, then hitting the gas to near-triple digit speeds.  Shortly thereafter, I came around a bend, spotted some flashing lights and saw that she had been pulled over by a cop.  I'm guessing that she might have been exceeding the speed limit by a large enough margin to have lost her license.  This incident convinced me that our world is not wholly without justice.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by thescarecrow

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Hell, I just played a 6 hour shotgun tournament with my club this weekend.  Teed off around 10:04 and finished about 4PM.  A four hour round would have been music to my ears Saturday.

That is also one of the reasons I won't be playing with this club anymore.

It sounds like organisers dropped the ball here, how many played?   Shotguns SHOULD move quicker as long as everybody is in position at start time.

Why?  If the course is full, it's full - doesn't matter how it got that way.  A shotgun with just 2 groups on each hole is 144 players (I've seen them add 16 more players by putting 3 groups on each par 5).  They are still going to have the same trials and tribulations as players who start in order on the first tee.  In fact you lose even the slight advantage of the first groups getting out with nobody in front to slow them down.  Shotguns are notorious for slow play, in part because they are so often treated as golf course parties, with the associated adult beverages and horseplay.  The main advantage to a shotgun start is that everyone finishes together, which makes it easier to do a buffet style meal and award prizes afterward.