Pace of Play - Etiquette Question

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

That's a drag. How can you be behind the pace when the group in front of you is still in range?

Because the group in front of you is also behind pace. Although if the OP finished 18 holes in 3 hours 30 minutes and was told they were 30 minutes behind pace, something is off here. I find it hard to believe the pace of play for the course is only 3 hours.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by mp33 man

Im curious if anyone knows what "proper etiquette" for the ranger is?

Did he really need to follow us to the next hole and supervise us?

Originally Posted by mp33 man

I played a 3 1/2 hour round (par 70) on Monday and my group of three was told by the ranger, aka huge douchebag, that my group was a half hour behind the pace for a "normal foursome".

I want to kinda set the stage so that everyone can see how objective "slow play" is.

U showed up at the course with my threesome (myself, my brother-in-law who has just started playing and his girlfriend who is a good golfer) fourty five minutes before our tee time so that we could all three split a small bag of balls and putt a little before our round.

Fifteen minutes before our tee time and the "douchebag" wanders up to tell us that if we don't start than he will give our time to the next group, to which I responded no problem we can wait.

Ten minutes later we started our round (five minutes early) and started to play at what I thought was a decent pace.

At the third hole I happened to look up at the gps and I noticed that there was a clock that showed time elapsed and whether or not you were behind the pace. The clock said that we were 8 min behind pace so I told them that we should pick up the pace (I just assumed that I had lost track of how long we were taking).

On the 9th hole, which was a par five, I waited for 7 min while the group in front of me played "army golf" before finally deciding to hit a hybrid just to keep pace.

On the 10th hole "douchebag" rides up to tell us that "we were behind and that we were holding up play".

He then followed us up to the 11th tee and watched us play the entire hole, including putting out. The 11th is a par three and we played it in four minutes.

DOUCHBAG.

I won't repeat what I told him after that hole but it ended with him driving off while I flipped him off.

Rangers/Marshals do have every right to, and often will, follow you and your group and monitor your play. They can do so for many reasons, including to ensure there is no property damage and ensure that pace of play and proper etiquette is being followed. This is especially the case in situations where a group around you (typically behind you) calls the club house to make a report of some type of infraction, not that this is necessary for the ranger/marshal to follow you.

I do think that you were most likely out of line in this case, especially if the ranger did not show you any disrespect as you demonstrated in the final line of your post. In fact, if you truly did behave this way, he absolutely showed proper etiquette by driving away and not escalating the situation.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Rangers/Marshals do have every right to, and often will, follow you and your group and monitor your play. They can do so for many reasons, including to ensure there is no property damage and ensure that pace of play and proper etiquette is being followed. This is especially the case in situations where a group around you (typically behind you) calls the club house to make a report of some type of infraction, not that this is necessary for the ranger/marshal to follow you.

I do think that you were most likely out of line in this case, especially if the ranger did not show you any disrespect as you demonstrated in the final line of your post. In fact, if you truly did behave this way, he absolutely showed proper etiquette by driving away and not escalating the situation.

IF in fact the marshal told them they were holding up play and IF in fact they were keeping up with the group ahead of them, then the marshal was out of line.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by mp33 man

I played a 3 1/2 hour round (par 70) on Monday and my group of three was told by the ranger, aka huge douchebag, that my group was a half hour behind the pace for a "normal foursome".

I want to kinda set the stage so that everyone can see how objective "slow play" is.

U showed up at the course with my threesome (myself, my brother-in-law who has just started playing and his girlfriend who is a good golfer) fourty five minutes before our tee time so that we could all three split a small bag of balls and putt a little before our round.

Fifteen minutes before our tee time and the "douchebag" wanders up to tell us that if we don't start than he will give our time to the next group, to which I responded no problem we can wait.

Ten minutes later we started our round (five minutes early) and started to play at what I thought was a decent pace.

At the third hole I happened to look up at the gps and I noticed that there was a clock that showed time elapsed and whether or not you were behind the pace. The clock said that we were 8 min behind pace so I told them that we should pick up the pace (I just assumed that I had lost track of how long we were taking).

On the 9th hole, which was a par five, I waited for 7 min while the group in front of me played "army golf" before finally deciding to hit a hybrid just to keep pace.

On the 10th hole "douchebag" rides up to tell us that "we were behind and that we were holding up play".

He then followed us up to the 11th tee and watched us play the entire hole, including putting out. The 11th is a par three and we played it in four minutes.

DOUCHBAG.

I won't repeat what I told him after that hole but it ended with him driving off while I flipped him off.

Seems like something is missing from the story. Maybe his dog died. Maybe his wife just left him. Easier said than done, but I try to imaging guys like that are having really bad days and I try to feel sorry for them. That said, I also try to be polite and firmly let him know that he is out of line. If he didn't apologize, I'd like to think that I would have called the clubhouse while on that par 3 and complained to the pro shop that the ranger was harassing our group. They should know that they have a problem employee or at the least, an employee having a really bad day.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

IF in fact the marshal told them they were holding up play and IF in fact they were keeping up with the group ahead of them, then the marshal was out of line.

Absolutely. The marshal's job is to speed up play. If he's not talking to the group that's actually holding up the field, then he's not doing his job.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

IF in fact the marshal told them they were holding up play and IF in fact they were keeping up with the group ahead of them, then the marshal was out of line.

Originally Posted by Stretch

Absolutely. The marshal's job is to speed up play. If he's not talking to the group that's actually holding up the field, then he's not doing his job.

There are far too many IFs left over to give a simple and straight answer. But, since the OP did admit they were playing behind schedule, or "slower than typical pace of a foursome", the ranger/marshal was doing their job. Maybe they were doing it too well and coming off annoying, or "by the book d-bag", but he was in the right if there are no event-altering details left out by the OP.

On top of that, to have an altercation with a marshal where you're flipping him off in the end leads me to believe that you're leaving something out that you did wrong. I have never once in my life met a marshal/ranger that would go out of their way to be an ass without you provoking the behavior from them.

I have met rangers who take their job far too seriously and are out of line to an extent, but never did it even come near the point of me yelling at them or causing a scene. By out of line to an extent , I mean with comments they make and odd behavior. Such as driving over to me when I accidentally land my ball on an opposite green (happened to me 2 weeks ago..  embarrassing as hell) and yelling "Hey! You can't play that off of the green!" - as I am walking to my ball with no club in hand and shouting back "Oh, really!? When the hell did that change??" while I'm laughing in disbelief.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

Because the group in front of you is also behind pace.

Although if the OP finished 18 holes in 3 hours 30 minutes and was told they were 30 minutes behind pace, something is off here. I find it hard to believe the pace of play for the course is only 3 hours.

Originally Posted by Stretch

Absolutely. The marshal's job is to speed up play. If he's not talking to the group that's actually holding up the field, then he's not doing his job.

That's my point (probably poorly worded, MB is right in that the OP's group is behind pace but they are NOT holding up play), the marshall isn't addressing the problem he's harassing the group for demonstrating etiquette by not hitting into the group ahead of them. He should be talking to the group(s) that is causing the hold up not harassing every golfer that is behind pace because of the groups that are actually holding up play.

That's what pisses me off in these scenarios, the marshall is just running around kicking everyone in the shins when they are stuck behind other groups, it seems pointless and doesn't do anything but make an already painful round even less fun.

[mp33 man]

Because the group in front of you is also behind pace. Although if the OP finished 18 holes in 3 hours 30 minutes and was told they were 30 minutes behind pace, something is off here. I find it hard to believe the pace of play for the course is only 3 hours.

I apologize, I just read my post. The course is a par 65 (I shot a 70, I played well and made a lot of putts). Our tee time was 9:37, we started at 9:33 and we finished at 1:06. If I did the math correctly that's 3 hrs and 33 min. I agree that 3 hrs seems really fast which is why I was so pissed. I would be happy to give the name of the course but I don't think that would be allowed.

[mp33 man]

IF in fact the marshal told them they were holding up play and IF in fact they were keeping up with the group ahead of them, then the marshal was out of line.

When the ranger told us that we were holding up play I informed him that we were in fact being held up by the group in front of us he responded by saying that the next group was on 15 (to quote my brother in law "condescendingly").

[mp33 man]

There are far too many IFs left over to give a simple and straight answer. But, since the OP did admit they were playing behind schedule, or "slower than typical pace of a foursome", the ranger/marshal was doing their job. Maybe they were doing it too well and coming off annoying, or "by the book d-bag", but he was in the right if there are no event-altering details left out by the OP. On top of that, to have an altercation with a marshal where you're flipping him off in the end leads me to believe that you're leaving something out that you did wrong. I have never once in my life met a marshal/ranger that would go out of their way to be an ass without you provoking the behavior from them.  I have met rangers who take their job far too seriously and are out of line to an extent, but never did it even come near the point of me yelling at them or causing a scene. By out of line to an extent , I mean with comments they make and odd behavior. Such as driving over to me when I accidentally land my ball on an opposite green (happened to me 2 weeks ago..  embarrassing as hell) and yelling "Hey! You can't play that off of the green!" - as I am walking to my ball with no club in hand and shouting back "Oh, really!? When the hell did that change??" while I'm laughing in disbelief.

There are less retiree marshals in Ohio I guess because I've run into a few. And just because I said "i won't repeat what I said" doesn't mean that I yelled at him, I did however let him know that I was less than happy and as he drove away he was running his mouth which is why he was flipped off.

[Fourputt]

As one who has worked as a starter and pretty much seen it all, I won't make any definitive comments without having been there and in possession of all of the facts.  I would usually rather that the ranger was a bit overly enthusiastic at his job than just taking up space and wasting air.  When  ranger approaches my group, I will be politely respectful to him.  If he asks us to pick up the pace I will do my best to do so.  Often when a ranger is faced with a slowdown, he will address the group who seems to be the problem, and then he will work back up the line explaining that the pace may be a bit quick until all groups are back on pace.  It's possible that the group who was the problem caught up on their own, and he is asking the rest of the field to do the same.

Since most courses which even have any pace of play monitoring only have at most a couple of rangers, and usually only one, he has a lot of territory to cover and he may not see exactly what caused the problem.  Maybe when he gets there, he only sees a gap between you and the group in front of you, sees that you have a beginner with you, and makes an assumption that your group is the problem.  Even then, if he knows his job he will start out being polite and just request that you close the gap.  Then he may watch to see if you do so.  That is his job, and it's wrong for you to automatically resent it.

I've had cases where we waited on every shot for 4 or 5 holes putting us well off the pace.  Then the groups in front suddenly took off, and we had the ranger on our case, even though we weren't playing particularly slow, because we now had a one hole gap in front and didn't appear to making any effort to catch up again.  I will explain what happened from our point of view, and I will also say that we will do our best to close the gap, but if the situation happens too late in the round, there may not be enough holes left to completely catch up.  Sort of like a Nascar race where with 10 laps to go the 2nd place car is 5 seconds back and running faster than the leader, but gaining .3 min per lap, he still runs out of laps before the checkered flag is waved.  This is why our rangers at my home course tried to focus most of their energies on the front 9.  If all players know right from the start that they are going to be required to keep pace, there is less likely to be a serious issue on the back 9.

One other point.  If you get pissy with the ranger, he's not always going to be as nice as he is if you just accept that he's doing his job.  Politely agree with him and do your best to follow his instructions.  Complain afterwards if you really think that he picked you out for no reason, but make sure that you have some solid points ready to back it up (most of the time the ranger will have reported the situation long before you get back in), because our head pro figured that getting a few complaints just indicated that the rangers were doing their job.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by mp33 man

There are less retiree marshals in Ohio I guess because I've run into a few.

And just because I said "i won't repeat what I said" doesn't mean that I yelled at him, I did however let him know that I was less than happy and as he drove away he was running his mouth which is why he was flipped off.

Most of the rangers at the courses that I play are either paid, or receive unlimited free golf for themselves and up to 3 guests and discounts on all food, beverages, equipment and accessories sold in the pro-shop.

However, I guess I still just don't get the need for confrontation in this case. If I were the target of an angry ranger, I would still be respectful and keep doing what I am doing so long as I know that I am definitely not the cause of any problems. I would acknowledge the ranger and feel out the situation and just take a common sense look around me.

Once the round is over, I may say something or have a quick discussion with him and his tone will then determine the outcome of the conversation and how I escalate it if necessary. I'm just not going to get pissed off during my round though, especially if I know I did nothing wrong.

PS: You left out quite a bit of detail from your original post, which raised a lot of "ifs" and questions. As a result, it wouldn't be hard to read your last line and assume that you were out of line since you didn't really say the ranger was condescending or having that "I run this!" ego about him.

Next time, just laugh it off and do your best and give him a "Yes sir. No problem!". At least then you can laugh about it and continue having fun, rather than risk making an awkward scene and something escalating from nothing, or something not worth your time. If that is not good enough for him, wait until after your round and talk to him, or management if you think you can't get through to him.

[mp33 man]

Most of the rangers at the courses that I play are either paid, or receive unlimited free golf for themselves and up to 3 guests and discounts on all food, beverages, equipment and accessories sold in the pro-shop. However, I guess I still just don't get the need for confrontation in this case. If I were the target of an angry ranger, I would still be respectful and keep doing what I am doing so long as I know that I am definitely not the cause of any problems. I would acknowledge the ranger and feel out the situation and just take a common sense look around me. Once the round is over, I may say something or have a quick discussion with him and his tone will then determine the outcome of the conversation and how I escalate it if necessary. I'm just not going to get pissed off during my round though, especially if I know I did nothing wrong. PS: You left out quite a bit of detail from your original post, which raised a lot of "ifs" and questions. As a result, it wouldn't be hard to read your last line and assume that you were out of line since you didn't really say the ranger was condescending or having that "I run this!" ego about him. Next time, just laugh it off and do your best and give him a "Yes sir. No problem!". At least then you can laugh about it and continue having fun, rather than risk making an awkward scene and something escalating from nothing, or something not worth your time. If that is not good enough for him, wait until after your round and talk to him, or management if you think you can't get through to him.

Sorry for not elaborating further but I felt as though I was already being long winded. I was very polite until he followed to the next tee and watched us play the next hole (tapping his toe and literally looking at his watch, at one point he even clapped his hands like you would a dog). Don't get me wrong I usually don't usually get upset with course marshals in fact I generally like the rangers that I come into contact with. I often play with two of the rangers at the course where I play most often. And as far as etiquette goes, I was taught by my grandpa who always stessed the importance of treating your fellow golfers, course management and especially the course itself with the upmost respect but when I'm not treated with the same respect I tend to get a little pissy.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by mp33 man

Sorry for not elaborating further but I felt as though I was already being long winded.

I was very polite until he followed to the next tee and watched us play the next hole (tapping his toe and literally looking at his watch, at one point he even clapped his hands like you would a dog).

Don't get me wrong I usually don't usually get upset with course marshals in fact I generally like the rangers that I come into contact with. I often play with two of the rangers at the course where I play most often. And as far as etiquette goes, I was taught by my grandpa who always stessed the importance of treating your fellow golfers, course management and especially the course itself with the upmost respect but when I'm not treated with the same respect I tend to get a little pissy.

Thanks for clearing all of that up! I don't mind if posts are long-winded, as long as there is a point behind them and they make sense lol.

+1 on your last line as well and I completely agree. I apologize for the misunderstanding and for jumping to conclusions.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by mp33 man

When the ranger told us that we were holding up play I informed him that we were in fact being held up by the group in front of us he responded by saying that the next group was on 15 (to quote my brother in law "condescendingly").

My personal gauge is that, to be keeping up with the group in front, you should at least be teeing off before they have completed the hole (unless it's a par 3).  Ideally you would be ready to tee off by the time they clear the fairway, but sometimes on any given hole things can happen to affect that.

I'm particularly sensitive to pace of play lately because I've had some really crappy experiences.  This weekend I got really frustrated during my round of 18+9(replay) and during my round of 18 on Memorial Day.  The reason isn't simply because it was slow, but because of why.  At one point on both courses I could see that the course really was NOT that packed, but that there was one group with 2+ holes clear in front of them and then several groups between them and myself.  When I realized that I was pissed.  One group jamming up an entire f**kin course.

I wonder what a marshal is realistically going to do in that situation?  You can urge them to play faster, but if they can't speed it up, then what?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I'm particularly sensitive to pace of play lately because I've had some really crappy experiences.  This weekend I got really frustrated during my round of 18+9(replay) and during my round of 18 on Memorial Day.  The reason isn't simply because it was slow, but because of why.  At one point on both courses I could see that the course really was NOT that packed, but that there was one group with 2+ holes clear in front of them and then several groups between them and myself.  When I realized that I was pissed.  One group jamming up an entire f**kin course.

I wonder what a marshal is realistically going to do in that situation?  You can urge them to play faster, but if they can't speed it up, then what?

If the course management has any real concerns about the majority of their customers, the ranger will have the authority to make the slow group pick up and move ahead until they close the gap.  The trouble with that is that the groups behind them who have done nothing wrong are now out of position and a hole and a half back.  That is why, to be effective, the rangers must stay on top of things from the start.  Allowing a group to get 2 holes behind is unacceptable.  New in cart GPS systems can help with group tracking, but most courses still can't justify that sort of an investment, so rangers need to be properly trained, then be authorized to do what is necessary to keep the entire course on pace.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

My personal gauge is that, to be keeping up with the group in front, you should at least be teeing off before they have completed the hole (unless it's a par 3).  Ideally you would be ready to tee off by the time they clear the fairway, but sometimes on any given hole things can happen to affect that.

I'm particularly sensitive to pace of play lately because I've had some really crappy experiences.  This weekend I got really frustrated during my round of 18+9(replay) and during my round of 18 on Memorial Day.  The reason isn't simply because it was slow, but because of why.  At one point on both courses I could see that the course really was NOT that packed, but that there was one group with 2+ holes clear in front of them and then several groups between them and myself.  When I realized that I was pissed.  One group jamming up an entire f**kin course.

I wonder what a marshal is realistically going to do in that situation?  You can urge them to play faster, but if they can't speed it up, then what?

I had a 6 hour round, as a single player with my dad riding with me, on Saturday morning this past weekend. I was absolutely livid and I rarely, rarely lose my cool. The course was slammed with nothing but foursomes and there was one twosome in front of me that clearly never played the course. However, they were overly annoying as they were waiting on 300 yard, blind green Par 4s thinking they had a risk of hitting people. I caught this elderly pair on 4 different tees where I assured them that they were clear and able to hit.

In literally 8 instances, I waited for them to tee off and waited nearly 5 minutes before I could even step foot in the box, on top of another 10-15 minutes for them to make it a safe distance off of the tee for me to hit.

This was by far one of the longest rounds I have ever played and I typically average 3 hours as a single. In some cases, 3.5 hours if I am really taking my time or practicing on greens if there are no golfers behind me. I was beyond frustrated and haven't gone out since because it really turned me off.

In my case, no amount of ranger/marshal monitoring was going to save me unless 3-4 groups of foursomes were removed from the course entirely.

I am hoping this weekend coming up is much better.

Memorial Day weekend really sucked for golfing because there were a lot of "party golfers" on the course.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I wonder what a marshal is realistically going to do in that situation?  You can urge them to play faster, but if they can't speed it up, then what?

I played a nice resort course the other day that is the best marshaled course I've yet to play.  It's a pricey course (with a Ritz Carlton and a St. Regis immediately adjacent to give you an idea), so they have jacked up rack rates, and 10 minute spaced tee times.  The starter at the first tee gave us a five minute schpiel about how best to play the course and he even told us that we should look at our putts from both sides before playing because the greens are tricky.  (That was a bit of an exaggeration ... they're not that tricky ;))

During the course of our round, we ran into a ranger (there were definitely more than one) at least 4 times, perhaps more.  They were all super friendly, and they had extra water if you needed it, probably tees, ball mark repair tools, and mulch too, I imagine.

Pace was pretty good, where we never really waited for the group in front of us more than a minute or two, and there was never a group behind us waiting either.  As we were teeing off on 9, I noticed that the group behind us were still on the 7th green.  I sliced my drive on 9 into the 6th fairway, then when I approached, I realized there was nobody there.  Just as I was preparing to hit, I heard/saw some carts driving up to the tee, then as I was walking up the hill back to my fairway, I realized that they never stopped driving and were passing behind me.  I turned around and noticed 3 carts, one of them being the marshals, and they all three proceeded all the way to the 7th tee.

I have no idea exactly how it played out, but based on the "evidence" I saw, it looks like the marshal thought those guys were playing too slowly and made them skip the entire 6th hole to catch back up with the group ahead.

My dad and father-in-law played Pebble Beach earlier this year (jerks didn't invite me) and they got a forecaddie.  They said that the pro shop will warn you, if you don't get caddies or a forecaddie, and choose to go it alone, if you fall behind you WILL be required to skip a hole as necessary to keep pace.