Is it better to play fast or play by the rules?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by trackster

Do you guys even read things written here or do you just jump to conclusions?  In my first post I said that of course people on this forum can play fast and within the rules.  I was asking about the average golfer, not one that seeks out to join a golf forum.

You asked which is better. So you were asking what the "average golfer" SHOULD do, not what he DOES do.  And the overwhelming answer is that he SHOULD do BOTH.  The only thing preventing the average golfer from doing both is ignorance.  It is BETTER to do BOTH, whether you are a beginner, and "average golfer", an avid golfer or a professional golfer.  Which is why I said that it was a false dichotomy, because as presented the question contained the implication that to the average golfer the two choices were mutually exclusive.

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by iacas

No you don't.

Who are you to say that? If I play by myself, I usually don't even bring a score card. I can feel how the game is going, I don't need numbers on a piece of cardboard to tell be how well or horrible I am doing. This also means that I never applied penalty strokes during that game...because I wasn't keeping score to apply penalties to. Who are you to decide that I am somehow violating the "rules"? If me and my buddies decide that we are going to allow 2 milligans per round, how does that affect you at all?? Why would you care?

Its elitist pricks that are ruining golf, not people who actually enjoy it by going out, being active, and having a good time doing it.

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by trackster

Do you guys even read things written here or do you just jump to conclusions?  In my first post I said that of course people on this forum can play fast and within the rules.  I was asking about the average golfer, not one that seeks out to join a golf forum.

Yes I did read what you said.  But the "average golfer" is like the "average human".  You can define the average golfer but finding one is difficult.  What I was saying above is that slow play occurs for a variety of reasons, the least of which is "playing by the rules".  It is a rare occasion that when I have seen playing by the rules cause a delay in the game, in fact it seems a rare occasion you get teamed up with a group that plays by the rules when out single which leads me to conclude most people with clubs on the golf course are not playing golf (e.g. not playing by the rules).

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by saevel25

that statement right there goes against everything that golf stands for. The pinnacle of golf, which puts it above all other sports is the fact that golfers call penalties on themselves. They accept they penalty. They don't throw there hands up in the air and say, "I didn't do it". Going back to Bobby Jones calling a penalty on himself, its a game that invokes pride from golfers who play by the strict rules of golf. The rules are as much part of the game as the course, the golfer, the clubs. Its speaks of the tradition of a game founded hundreds of years ago.

Yup, golf was founded hundreds of years ago as a game for the more fortunate....a game for elitists...and has played that way for hundreds of years. Apparently anyone who "doesn't belong", still isn't welcome. People would be a lot happier on the golf course if they stopped worrying about everyone else's game, and started just enjoying theirs.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

that statement right there goes against everything that golf stands for. The pinnacle of golf, which puts it above all other sports is the fact that golfers call penalties on themselves. They accept they penalty. They don't throw there hands up in the air and say, "I didn't do it". Going back to Bobby Jones calling a penalty on himself, its a game that invokes pride from golfers who play by the strict rules of golf. The rules are as much part of the game as the course, the golfer, the clubs. Its speaks of the tradition of a game founded hundreds of years ago.

Yup, golf was founded hundreds of years ago as a game for the more fortunate....a game for elitists...and has played that way for hundreds of years. Apparently anyone who "doesn't belong", still isn't welcome. People would be a lot happier on the golf course if they stopped worrying about everyone else's game, and started just enjoying theirs.

You started this spat by making a false statement (that playing by the rules slows the game down), got yourself in hot water, and now you found out that you can't swim.  Let me throw you a life preserver.

Nobody, not even Erik, cares how you keep score with your buddies.  We do care about how fast you play, how you comport yourself on the course, and how you handle the rules of etiquette.  Those things have the potential to impact our enjoyment of the game even when we aren't in your group, so how you deal with them is important.  After that, if you want to play your own game that's similar to golf, have at it.  Just let us do the same with golf by the rules.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Yup, golf was founded hundreds of years ago as a game for the more fortunate....a game for elitists...and has played that way for hundreds of years. Apparently anyone who "doesn't belong", still isn't welcome. People would be a lot happier on the golf course if they stopped worrying about everyone else's game, and started just enjoying theirs.

Ooooh, calling me an elitist, thanks for the ego boost man, i always enjoy one :)

Following the rules of golf has nothing to do about making people happier. There is no correlation at all. Just because you get angry with one rule doesn't mean its the norm. Let me say this, Happy, Angry, those emotions you feel on the course are all you. There illusions created in your head because you take the game personally and feel cheated. That is a mindset, not a reality.

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You started this spat by making a false statement (that playing by the rules slows the game down), got yourself in hot water, and now you found out that you can't swim.  Let me throw you a life preserver.

Nobody, not even Erik, cares how you keep score with your buddies.  We do care about how fast you play, how you comport yourself on the course, and how you handle the rules of etiquette.  Those things have the potential to impact our enjoyment of the game even when we aren't in your group, so how you deal with them is important.  After that, if you want to play your own game that's similar to golf, have at it.  Just let us do the same with golf by the rules.

I never said playing by the rules causes slow play....I said that playing by the rule CAN cause you to slow down. Big difference. If I am playing a round by the rules and never run into trouble, of course it's not going to slow me down. But if I shoot what looks like a decent tee shot, but when I get to the area I think the ball is I can't find it. Quick search of the rough and surrounding area yields no results...now I have to walk back 250 yards to re tee...adding 8 or so minutes to that hole.  Now if that happens to each person in a foursome during a round, that's 32 minutes added to a round...a considerable amount of time.

I also never said that people shouldn't play by the rules. All I said was that if playing by the rules is slowing you down, (read above) I would rather someone deviated from the rules in order to keep pace of play moving. I would also have no problem with those people just stepping aside and letting people play through.

And I clearly said in my statement that as long as course etiquette and pace of play were being met, who cares what "rules" are followed or ignored...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Who are you to say that?

If you make up your own rules, you aren't playing golf. You might be whacking a ball with a stick on a golf course, but you're not playing golf.

That's all I was saying, and it is accurate. Revisit your quoted text and the bold part in particular.

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Who are you to decide that I am somehow violating the "rules"? If me and my buddies decide that we are going to allow 2 milligans per round, how does that affect you at all?? Why would you care?

I don't care. But you also don't really get to call what you played golf. Golf has rules. If you deviate from those, it's not really golf. Softball and baseball are very very similar, but they're different sports with subtly different rules.

Drop the attitude. I was just responding to your comment that "you set your own rules." No, you don't. And that's all I said.

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Its elitist pricks that are ruining golf, not people who actually enjoy it by going out, being active, and having a good time doing it.

Nobody's being a prick unless you look in the mirror and think that you might be. Chill out.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

How? Golf is an individual sport...You set your own rules and expectations.

I think a lot of people - maybe the majority of players - agree with this.  And I think it is problem.  I totally don't mind if someone does this and never mentions a score.  You more or less rented your time on the course and having done that you can play by the rules or some made up rules or just walk down the course and never swing the club for all I care.

But I really do not think it is a good thing to ever say what you scored unless you really tried to play it by the rules.  I play with people all the time who take mulligans and skirt the rules and whatever - and then at the end announce their score and how pleased they are with it.  Someone on above mentioned the whole Bobby Jones thing and it being a game of integrity and such.  It isn't.  People definitely make up their own rules. And those scores with the made up rules are diluting how hard it really is to score well.  If you didn't play by the rules, don't write down a score. It is pointless.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

And I clearly said in my statement that as long as course etiquette and pace of play were being met, who cares what "rules" are followed or ignored...

I totally agree with you on this one.  I don't really understand why we, as golfers, always have such a cow towards other people who want to bend the rules a little bit.  So f**king what?  If you are competing against somebody, then that is a whole different ballgame, but if you are just enjoying the game by yourself or with you friends, regardless of which rules you want to follow, you are, in my opinion, still playing golf.

When I was a kid and I came back from the park and my dad asked me "What did you guys do?," I would sometimes answer "We played baseball."

I don't ever recall him coming back with "No you weren't!  Did you have umpires?  Did you play with strikeouts and walks?  What?!?!  You had ghost runners!  Go to your room, you are grounded for a week!  AND DON'T EVER LET ME HEAR YOU REFER TO THAT AS BASEBALL AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Why?  Because that would be ridiculous.  I played baseball.  When we went to the playground, even without fouls and winners outs, we played basketball.  Even in my driveway with sneakers and cars in the way, we stilled played hockey.  If you are at a course and you're whacking the ball into the hole, no matter what anybody on here says, you are golfing.  You play golf your way, I'll play golf my way, and as long as everybody stays out of everybody else's way (etiquette and speed) we're all gonna be happy.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I totally agree with you on this one.  I don't really understand why we, as golfers, always have such a cow towards other people who want to bend the rules a little bit.  So f**king what?  If you are competing against somebody, then that is a whole different ballgame, but if you are just enjoying the game by yourself or with you friends, regardless of which rules you want to follow, you are, in my opinion, still playing golf.

When I was a kid and I came back from the park and my dad asked me "What did you guys do?," I would sometimes answer "We played baseball."

I don't ever recall him coming back with "No you weren't!  Did you have umpires?  Did you play with strikeouts and walks?  What?!?!  You had ghost runners!  Go to your room, you are grounded for a week!  AND DON'T EVER LET ME HEAR YOU REFER TO THAT AS BASEBALL AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Why?  Because that would be ridiculous.  I played baseball.  When we went to the playground, even without fouls and winners outs, we played basketball.  Even in my driveway with sneakers and cars in the way, we stilled played hockey.  If you are at a course and you're whacking the ball into the hole, no matter what anybody on here says, you are golfing.  You play golf your way, I'll play golf my way, and as long as everybody stays out of everybody else's way (etiquette and speed) we're all gonna be happy.

You got it right there on the first paragraph, i don't care if you want to enjoy the game. I don't care if you don't play by the rules. Just don't come round me and tell me your the same handicap as me, because i know you are not when your not taking stroke and distance for lost balls, or dropping were the ball crossed OB. Because your saving a stroke and more. That's all i care about. Go ahead and enjoy the game how ever you want, more power to you.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I totally agree with you on this one.  I don't really understand why we, as golfers, always have such a cow towards other people who want to bend the rules a little bit.  So f**king what?  If you are competing against somebody, then that is a whole different ballgame, but if you are just enjoying the game by yourself or with you friends, regardless of which rules you want to follow, you are, in my opinion, still playing golf.

When I was a kid and I came back from the park and my dad asked me "What did you guys do?," I would sometimes answer "We played baseball."

I don't ever recall him coming back with "No you weren't!  Did you have umpires?  Did you play with strikeouts and walks?  What?!?!  You had ghost runners!  Go to your room, you are grounded for a week!  AND DON'T EVER LET ME HEAR YOU REFER TO THAT AS BASEBALL AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Why?  Because that would be ridiculous.  I played baseball.  When we went to the playground, even without fouls and winners outs, we played basketball.  Even in my driveway with sneakers and cars in the way, we stilled played hockey.  If you are at a course and you're whacking the ball into the hole, no matter what anybody on here says, you are golfing.  You play golf your way, I'll play golf my way, and as long as everybody stays out of everybody else's way (etiquette and speed) we're all gonna be happy.

I agree with you, what other people do that I'm not competing against has little or no impact on me so I don't care.  BUT....  Handicaps and scores are probably more discussed between golfers than scores or stats in other sports.   In golf, people will usually ask you what you shoot or your handicap.

You're  a 6.8, you likely put a lot of time and effort into getting your handicap that low and you should be proud of it.  I'm a 20 but I could be a 6.8 if I took numerous foot wedges, mulligans, gimme putts, etc.  Technically I wouldn't really be a 6.8 I'd be a cheater with a 6.8 handicap.  If I walked around claiming to be a 6.8 in my mind I'm discounting all the hard work and effort you and every other sub 7 handicap golfer put into achieving such a low handicap.  The game is supposed to be about integrity and we all know how hard a game it is which is why I think that's why some people get upset when others cheat yet maintain a handicap or brag about the low scores they really didn't achieve.

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by iacas

If you make up your own rules, you aren't playing golf. You might be whacking a ball with a stick on a golf course, but you're not playing golf.

That's all I was saying, and it is accurate. Revisit your quoted text and the bold part in particular.

I don't care. But you also don't really get to call what you played golf. Golf has rules. If you deviate from those, it's not really golf. Softball and baseball are very very similar, but they're different sports with subtly different rules.

Drop the attitude. I was just responding to your comment that "you set your own rules." No, you don't. And that's all I said.

Nobody's being a prick unless you look in the mirror and think that you might be. Chill out.

Really man? Not playing golf because I'm not following every rule to a T? You just sound nit picky and petty. If I go play a 3 on 3 charity hockey tournament, am I not playing hockey?? But there's no goalies and the nets are tiny....I guess we should call it stick puck with tiny net tournament from now on.

I do not have an attitude...and I never said anyone was being a prick. I said that elitist pricks (no one in particular, just in general) ruin any sport...they feel that there is a certain standard that must be met, otherwise you are a poser and a wanna be.

I will go and play GOLF to the rules that I feel necessary to follow to fulfill my enjoyment and to not interfere with anyone else.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I agree with you, what other people do that I'm not competing against has little or no impact on me so I don't care.  BUT....  Handicaps and scores are probably more discussed between golfers than scores or stats in other sports.   In golf, people will usually ask you what you shoot or your handicap.

You're  a 6.8, you likely put a lot of time and effort into getting your handicap that low and you should be proud of it.  I'm a 20 but I could be a 6.8 if I took numerous foot wedges, mulligans, gimme putts, etc.  Technically I wouldn't really be a 6.8 I'd be a cheater with a 6.8 handicap.  If I walked around claiming to be a 6.8 in my mind I'm discounting all the hard work and effort you and every other sub 7 handicap golfer put into achieving such a low handicap.  The game is supposed to be about integrity and we all know how hard a game it is which is why I think that's why some people get upset when others cheat yet maintain a handicap or brag about the low scores they really didn't achieve.

Right ... because you and I are alike.  (As are most of the people on this forum, I think)  We take the game seriously and it means something to us.  We take pride in our accomplishments, and work hard to get them.  But when I meet somebody who claims a handicap that I know or suspect is bogus ... it doesn't bother me.  It just doesn't mean anything to me one way or another.  I'm completely indifferent, and I'm surprised that anybody would feel different than that.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Really man? Not playing golf because I'm not following every rule to a T? You just sound nit picky and petty. If I go play a 3 on 3 charity hockey tournament, am I not playing hockey?? But there's no goalies and the nets are tiny....I guess we should call it stick puck with tiny net tournament from now on.

I do not have an attitude...and I never said anyone was being a prick. I said that elitist pricks (no one in particular, just in general) ruin any sport...they feel that there is a certain standard that must be met, otherwise you are a poser and a wanna be.

I will go and play GOLF to the rules that I feel necessary to follow to fulfill my enjoyment and to not interfere with anyone else.

No your playing 3 on 3 hockey, you are not playing real hockey. That's why they call it 3 on 3. If you play in a golf scramble, you are playing golf, you are playing a scramble, which is a sub game of golf. There is a difference. You are not playing golf unless you play by the rules. The home run derby isn't baseball, it implements the tools of baseball, and might be part of the baseball tradition, but it is not a legit game of baseball. Just like a half court pick up game of basketball is just a pickup game of basketball, it is not a legit game of basketball, you can not compare it to college basketball or pro basketball. So when you say you are playing golf, but not following all the rules, you are not playing golf, you are playing "mvarley84 golf", the correct categorization would be Pseudo-golf.

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by saevel25

No your playing 3 on 3 hockey, you are not playing real hockey. That's why they call it 3 on 3. If you play in a golf scramble, you are playing golf, you are playing a scramble, which is a sub game of golf. There is a difference. You are not playing golf unless you play by the rules. The home run derby isn't baseball, it implements the tools of baseball, and might be part of the baseball tradition, but it is not a legit game of baseball. Just like a half court pick up game of basketball is just a pickup game of basketball, it is not a legit game of basketball, you can not compare it to college basketball or pro basketball. So when you say you are playing golf, but not following all the rules, you are not playing golf, you are playing "mvarley84 golf", the correct categorization would be Pseudo-golf.

This is just arguing semantics at this point...Cheers Oxford.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Really man? Not playing golf because I'm not following every rule to a T? You just sound nit picky and petty. If I go play a 3 on 3 charity hockey tournament, am I not playing hockey?? But there's no goalies and the nets are tiny....I guess we should call it stick puck with tiny net tournament from now on.

The thread has the context of being very specific about the rules.

Like Drew and others, I couldn't care less what you do on the golf course so long as you're not holding up play. I don't care if you never finish a hole, chip and putt a few extra times, kick your ball every other hole, etc. It's not "golf" per the rules (i.e. one of the topics of the thread), but if you do whatever it is you do quickly, I couldn't care less.

You can "set your own rules" all you want, but it's not truly "golf" and this thread has "the rules" in the title, and they don't mean "whatever rules you make up," it means The Rules of Golf (which, again, I couldn't care less if you play by or not when it doesn't affect me).

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvarley84

And I clearly said in my statement that as long as course etiquette and pace of play were being met, who cares what "rules" are followed or ignored...

I totally agree with you on this one.  I don't really understand why we, as golfers, always have such a cow towards other people who want to bend the rules a little bit.  So f**king what?  If you are competing against somebody, then that is a whole different ballgame, but if you are just enjoying the game by yourself or with you friends, regardless of which rules you want to follow, you are, in my opinion, still playing golf.

When I was a kid and I came back from the park and my dad asked me "What did you guys do?," I would sometimes answer "We played baseball."

I don't ever recall him coming back with "No you weren't!  Did you have umpires?  Did you play with strikeouts and walks?  What?!?!  You had ghost runners!  Go to your room, you are grounded for a week!  AND DON'T EVER LET ME HEAR YOU REFER TO THAT AS BASEBALL AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Why?  Because that would be ridiculous.  I played baseball.  When we went to the playground, even without fouls and winners outs, we played basketball.  Even in my driveway with sneakers and cars in the way, we stilled played hockey.  If you are at a course and you're whacking the ball into the hole, no matter what anybody on here says, you are golfing.  You play golf your way, I'll play golf my way, and as long as everybody stays out of everybody else's way (etiquette and speed) we're all gonna be happy.

Here we go again.  You cannot possibly compare a team sport which requires personnel outside of the players to properly manage the game to an individual sport which is self policed.  A group of kids may get together and play what they call baseball, but that doesn't make it baseball.  The same goes for golf.  Whether or not you play golf by the rules is strictly up to you.  You aren't playing a team sport requiring outside officiating.  As such, there is really is no excuse for not playing by the rules.  I see lots of rationalizing here and elsewhere, but I've never yet seen a legitimate excuse.  Don't get me wrong, I don't care what rules you play by, but if it isn't the Rules of Golf, then it isn't actually golf.

And by the way, no you didn't play basketball, and you didn't play hockey.  You played  games which vaguely resembled them, but that's as far as it goes.  I played sandlot ball games too, and they varied depending on how many kids we could get together - might be workup, or chicken base, but neither was baseball.  In any game, from golf to tiddly winks, it's only the rules which define the game.  Throw out the rules and you may be playing something, but it isn't the game that those rules describe.