What is an Albatross? (OT Stuff from "First Albatross" Thread)

[Lihu]

I have a question. If "par is not determined by your handicap", what is it determined by? What is used to decide if a hole is to short (or to long) to be "counted" as a par 5 (or 3 or 4)?

I thought par was determined by what a bunch of scratch golfers would get on a particular hole. Or is that too simple?

[14ledo81]

I thought par was determined by what a bunch of scratch golfers would get on a particular hole. Or is that too simple?

I honestly do not know. That is why I asked. I have some opinions, but I would like some factual answers.

[Lihu]

A 470-yard hole would put the scratch golfer on the green, not 5 yards short.

Now I get it. Why didn't Phil just say so (in simple terms for ignorant novices like me) from the get go? So, Par 5 needs to be out of reach of a scratch golfer in two shots. This includes such obstacles that prevent a driver from being used off the tee due to some lateral hazard from something like 250 to 270 yards. Phil also alluded to this in his argument, but it was not in simple enough terms for someone like me to fully comprehend. This is totally logical and simple, but I did not understand the definitions well enough to take any of this into account in any of my arguments earlier. It would have been better if the experts were a bit clearer in simple enough terms for people like me (an ignorant novice) to understand.

[iacas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

I have a question. If "par is not determined by your handicap", what is it determined by?

What is used to decide if a hole is to short (or to long) to be "counted" as a par 5 (or 3 or 4)?

I posted the definition earlier. The USGA quite literally defines it as:

Quote http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-02/:

"Par" is the score that an expert player would be expected to make for a given hole. Par means expert play under ordinary weather conditions, allowing two strokes on the putting green. Par is not a significant factor in either the USGA Handicap System or USGA Course Rating System. (See Section 16 .)

So… that's how you'd define it. It doesn't even really say a "scratch" player, though that's kind of the understood meaning of "expert"… outside of the U.S. Open. That's why they can make 500-yard par fours with thick rough at U.S. Opens.

[boil3rmak3r]

Re your last paragraph, the hole is marked what it's marked. Anyone who's playing the gold tees is playing a par 4. It can be a short par 4 or a long par 4, depending on how those tees suit the golfer's distance and ability.  Similarly, regardless of whether Trackster was playing tees suited for him or not, he was playing a par 5. It may have been a short par 5 for him, but that doesn't change the fact that he made a 2 on a par 5.

I am going to preface my post/question by saying that I am being sincere and am not tring call anyone out... At my home course, hole #7 is a 521 yd uphill par 5 from the "Men's" tee (which I play from). The senior tees play 393 yds and is still a par 5. I currently have a 6.5 index. Do you truly believe I should brag of an albatross if I "eagle" this hole from the senior tees?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r

I am going to preface my post/question by saying that I am being sincere and am not tring call anyone out...

At my home course, hole #7 is a 521 yd uphill par 5 from the "Men's" tee (which I play from). The senior tees play 393 yds and is still a par 5. I currently have a 6.5 index. Do you truly believe I should brag of an albatross if I "eagle" this hole from the senior tees?

I think that's a hole that factors like confusion or not wanting to try to fit it in a way that makes sense on the scorecard or whatnot are the only things not making that a par four.

If the elevation was severe enough, I could see it being a par five for women from the 393-yard tees.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Re your last paragraph, the hole is marked what it's marked. Anyone who's playing the gold tees is playing a par 4. It can be a short par 4 or a long par 4, depending on how those tees suit the golfer's distance and ability.  Similarly, regardless of whether Trackster was playing tees suited for him or not, he was playing a par 5. It may have been a short par 5 for him, but that doesn't change the fact that he made a 2 on a par 5.

I am going to preface my post/question by saying that I am being sincere and am not tring call anyone out...

At my home course, hole #7 is a 521 yd uphill par 5 from the "Men's" tee (which I play from). The senior tees play 393 yds and is still a par 5. I currently have a 6.5 index. Do you truly believe I should brag of an albatross if I "eagle" this hole from the senior tees?

Are you sure you quoted the right post? Because I don't see anything in there about me believing Trackster should be bragging about the albatross if the hole was a short par 5 for him. In fact in a later post I specifically say it's *not* worth bragging about.

But to answer your question in case it was indeed directed at me, and if it helps clarify my position:  If you as a 6.5 play the senior tees, you are playing tees that are not suited for you, so no, I don't think you should brag about an albatross or an eagle or your total score or anything else about that round. But you still played a par 5 if that's what the scorecard says.

[boil3rmak3r]

Are you sure you quoted the right post? Because I don't see anything in there about me believing Trackster should be bragging about the albatross if the hole was a short par 5 for him. In fact in a later post I specifically say it's *not* worth bragging about. But to answer your question in case it was indeed directed at me, and if it helps clarify my position:  If you as a 6.5 play the senior tees, you are playing tees that are not suited for you, so no, I don't think you should brag about an albatross or an eagle or your total score or anything else about that round. But you still played a par 5 if that's what the scorecard says.

Ummm, yea, I'm sure. It's post #65. I wouldn't use the quote option and just make things up... You wrote, "That doesn't change the fact that he made a 2 on a par 5." I took that as you supporting anyone making a 2 on a par 5 (regardless of what tees they're from) as a true albatross. I now see what you said. In my extreme example (a sub 400 yd par 5 from the senior tees), I would still score a 2 on a par 5, but whether I could truly call it an albatross is disputable...

[sacm3bill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Are you sure you quoted the right post? Because I don't see anything in there about me believing Trackster should be bragging about the albatross if the hole was a short par 5 for him. In fact in a later post I specifically say it's *not* worth bragging about.

But to answer your question in case it was indeed directed at me, and if it helps clarify my position:  If you as a 6.5 play the senior tees, you are playing tees that are not suited for you, so no, I don't think you should brag about an albatross or an eagle or your total score or anything else about that round. But you still played a par 5 if that's what the scorecard says.

Ummm, yea, I'm sure. It's post #65. I wouldn't use the quote option and just make things up...

You'd be surprised, it does happen - people click on the wrong quote and don't notice sometimes. Just making sure, no offense.

Quote:

You wrote, "That doesn't change the fact that he made a 2 on a par 5." I took that as you supporting anyone making a 2 on a par 5 (regardless of what tees they're from) as a true albatross.

I now see what you said. In my extreme example (a sub 400 yd par 5 from the senior tees), I would still score a 2 on a par 5, but whether I could truly call it an albatross is disputable...

Actually I *am* saying it's a true albatross if you make a 2 on a par 5. Always - by definition. (I mean, if you're not going by what the par is on the scorecard, how do you make the determination if par really is or is not what the scorecard says it is? Where do you draw the line?)

But I am also saying it's obviously not worth bragging about if it was a super short hole.

All this is just my opinion though, and you're right it is apparently disputable, as evidenced by the number of participants in, and length of, this thread. :-)

[boil3rmak3r]

You'd be surprised, it does happen - people click on the wrong quote and don't notice sometimes. Just making sure, no offense.

I understand and no offense taken :)