Opponent refused to putt in tournament play.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by phan52

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

So? You're saying people who enforced the rules in a fairly serious competitive situation had "poor sportsmanship."

I couldn't disagree more. The rules are the rules. Annika broke them, and her opponents had the right to make her re-play the shot.

I was watching when it happened and, yes, it was poor sportsmanship.  It was close enough that the American player walked off the distance to be sure. I am fairly certain they would have let it go if Annika had left it ten feet or boned it over the green.

JMO.

Which, none the less is still properly within the rules.  Annika should have waited, pure and simple, until it had been determined whose turn it was.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by RayG

Before this gets turned into another thread on slow play... (which it will, they ALL do). Do NOT do this on your casual weekend rounds. Let everyone get up onto the putting surface before it gets out of hand. "No, you're away- take out the pin, no, leave the pin in, okay, take it out for me. Hold on, I'm still off, leave it back in..."

Originally Posted by Fourputt

No, they aren't.  See the Definitions.

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

I agree.....unless someone really wants to go first and it's their turn under the rules.

I see quite often on this site statements like the above that basically say there are certain rules that should NOT BE FOLLOWED in "casual" rounds, for speed of play reasons.  While I agree that speed of play is important and these rules we are told to ignore can slow down the game at times, I think it is a bad idea to consistently play one set of rules most of the time (i.e. in "casual" rounds) and another set much less frequently (i.e. in competitive rounds).

I don't know the details with the Annika/Solheim Cup incident below, but if it occurred because Annika played most of her rounds thinking that when in doubt, the person off the green should hit first (as opposed to trying to gain a competitive advantage), then it is a good example of what can happen to even a seasoned pro when they get put into a situation when the rules are different than they normally play.

Many players I see play worse in competition than they do in casual rounds- I think this is caused in part because competitive rounds feel different than casual rounds if you are not used to putting everything out and following all the rules.

I think the game of golf would benefit if there were fewer rules that we should not follow during casual rounds.  (AKA, it would be better if the rules were such that there were fewer that it made sense to violate for speed of play reasons).

Originally Posted by phan52

Away means farther away from the hole.

I remember an instance in the Solheim Cup when Annika Sorenstam chipped in from off the green and the Americans made her redo the shot because one of them was farther away, although on the green. She missed and the Americans won the hole, and the match. Bad sportsmanship, IMO, but OK by the rules.

Originally Posted by iacas

The opposite is more true. It was bad sportsmanship by Annika to play out of turn and was outside the rules to play when she did.

" Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship."

- Patrick Campbell
Read more at http://www.golftoday.co.uk/noticeboard/quotes/rules.html#dr0Gr4VqBpeP4VOm.99

[colin007]

I think we are all missing the most important point: G entlemen O nly L adies F orbidden ;-) :-D ;-) :-D :-P :-P

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I see quite often on this site statements like the above that basically say there are certain rules that should NOT BE FOLLOWED in "casual" rounds, for speed of play reasons.  While I agree that speed of play is important and these rules we are told to ignore can slow down the game at times, I think it is a bad idea to consistently play one set of rules most of the time (i.e. in "casual" rounds) and another set much less frequently (i.e. in competitive rounds).

I agree for the most part, but it depends on what we are talking about.  As far as Rule 10 Order of Play this is the last part of D10-2b/1 :

Although condoning putting out of turn in stroke play may be questionable in view of the explicit language of Rule 10-2b , there is no penalty for doing so (Rule 10-2c ), it is not in conflict with the intent of Rule 10-2b , and it may tend to speed play. Accordingly, it is considered that the practice should not be discouraged.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

I agree for the most part, but it depends on what we are talking about.  As far as Rule 10 Order of Play this is the last part of D10-2b/1 :

Although condoning putting out of turn in stroke play may be questionable in view of the explicit language of Rule 10-2b, there is no penalty for doing so (Rule 10-2c), it is not in conflict with the intent of Rule 10-2b, and it may tend to speed play. Accordingly, it is considered that the practice should not be discouraged.

What would be the harm in having the order of play rule something like- the player farthest from the hole who is off the green hits first...When all players have reached the green the player farthest from the hole putts first (with the same right to finish as in the current rules)

Wouldn't this be more consistent with encouraging good speed of play while providing a fair framework for match play?

Put another way, why does the order of play rule need to be different for match play than the way most people (who are concerned with speed) play?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by MEfree

What would be the harm in having the order of play rule something like- the player farthest from the hole who is off the green hits first...When all players have reached the green the player farthest from the hole putts first (with the same right to finish as in the current rules)

Wouldn't this be more consistent with encouraging good speed of play while providing a fair framework for match play?

Put another way, why does the order of play rule need to be different for match play than the way most people (who are concerned with speed) play?

I think the harm would be that it makes it more confusing, not less.  Nothing could be simpler than furthest from the hole plays.

It would be a knee-jerk reaction to a "problem" that isn't really a problem.  OP had a clueless playing competitor yesterday, and Annika goofed once a bazillion years ago.

[barbm12thtee]

Haha Colin...gentleman? guess that leaves you out.

[Asheville]

You ask, ".... why does the order of play rule need to be different for match play than the way most people (who are concerned with speed) play?

The essence of match play is that your strategy is entirely dependent on your opponent's play. Unlike stroke play in which we compete against the golf course, in match play the match is, essentially, eighteen separate competitions. Par is meaningless in match play. In fact, no scorecard is necessary in match play.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by phan52

I was watching when it happened and, yes, it was poor sportsmanship.  It was close enough that the American player walked off the distance to be sure. I am fairly certain they would have let it go if Annika had left it ten feet or boned it over the green.

It wasn't poor sportsmanship.

BTW, I like this way of discussing things. Just state your opinions with no backing or factual basis at all. Wheeeeee!

Of course they'd have let it go if she'd done those things, as they are allowed to do within the rules. When Annika played out of turn, she put herself at the discretion of the opponent because Annika played out of turn!!!

The Europeans thought it was poor sportsmanship. BUT DUH! They played out of turn. They had to try to hole a shot they felt they'd already holed.

Heck, playing out of turn and being asked to replay the shot is one of the nicer penalties out there. You don't lose the hole, you don't get penalized strokes. You simply have to replay a shot.

Originally Posted by MEfree

I don't know the details with the Annika/Solheim Cup incident below, but if it occurred because Annika played most of her rounds thinking that when in doubt, the person off the green should hit first (as opposed to trying to gain a competitive advantage), then it is a good example of what can happen to even a seasoned pro when they get put into a situation when the rules are different than they normally play.

Annika is not an idiot, and they know how to play match play events. Annika likely just brain farted, and her opponents were right to call her on it.

Originally Posted by MEfree

I think the game of golf would benefit if there were fewer rules that we should not follow during casual rounds.  (AKA, it would be better if the rules were such that there were fewer that it made sense to violate for speed of play reasons).

I think we're all pretty well aware of your opinions about the complexity of the rules, despite "the player farthest away plays first" being one of the simplest rules around and your inability to "simplify" even a single rule without opening up so many holes and gaps and problems that you'd be drastically changing the way the game is played and has been played for decades or centuries.

Originally Posted by Asheville

The essence of match play is that your strategy is entirely dependent on your opponent's play. Unlike stroke play in which we compete against the golf course, in match play the match is, essentially, eighteen separate competitions. Par is meaningless in match play. In fact, no scorecard is necessary in match play.

Bingo.

[colin007]

Haha Colin...gentleman? guess that leaves you out.

Colin P.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

After research, she should have putted first *technically*.

lol

Why is it that when someone is wrong about a rule it becomes a technicality?

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

It's a golf tournament...anyone that isn't him, is his opponent.

Wrong again.  Words have meaning and in order to have communication occur and avoid confusion they should be used correctly.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Makes sense. I love match play, it changes strategy completely.

Glad this thread was posted though, I learned a new rule today...

A word of advice.  Don't answer questions on a Rules Forum when you are sketchy on the rules.  And NEVER get your rules knowledge from people you play with.  Get it from the rule book or from someone you KNOW is an expert, like some of the folks on this forum.

Originally Posted by MEfree

What would be the harm in having the order of play rule something like- the player farthest from the hole who is off the green hits first...When all players have reached the green the player farthest from the hole putts first (with the same right to finish as in the current rules)

Wouldn't this be more consistent with encouraging good speed of play while providing a fair framework for match play?

Put another way, why does the order of play rule need to be different for match play than the way most people (who are concerned with speed) play?

Because match play involves an element of strategy that is not present in stroke play.

The real question is why your initial response to almost anything is to change the rules?

[JaapB]

Would you guys and girls play the ball if an other has an advantage of you playing first, meaning they could learn something about the line you play to the hole.

I think that would be the only reason in a tournament I would insist that the other play first.

[Zachari208]

What the hell is the argument? Furthest out, is up.

[barbm12thtee]

Well yes we know that. What would be the penalty for refusing to putt and make another who is closer go? (In a County Amateur Championship, stroke play?)

[Rulesman]

Well yes we know that. What would be the penalty for refusing to putt and make another who is closer go? (In a County Amateur Championship, stroke play?)

2sp under 6-7.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by barbm12thtee

Well yes we know that. What would be the penalty for refusing to putt and make another who is closer go? (In a County Amateur Championship, stroke play?)

There's no penalty in stroke play unless it's done to gain an advantage.

c . Playing Out of Turn

If a competitor plays out of turn, there is no penalty and the ball is played as it lies. If, however, the Committee determines that competitors have agreed to play out of turn to give one of them an advantage, they are disqualified .

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I think the harm would be that it makes it more confusing, not less.  Nothing could be simpler than furthest from the hole plays.

It would be a knee-jerk reaction to a "problem" that isn't really a problem.  OP had a clueless playing competitor yesterday, and Annika goofed once a bazillion years ago.

You might be right for some and I agree that the current rule is very simple.  While I typically advocate making rules simpler, my idea of simple is so that more people understand them intuitively.  We have several rules in the game that make a distinction about being on and off the green- i.e. if you are on you can mark and clean your ball but not use the pin...if you are off you can use the pin but can't normally mark and clean your ball.

I have played with a lot of players who prefer to have everyone reach the green before pulling the flag and putting and have also played with some who prefer to have the guy farthest go first even if he is off.  When you have a mix of philosophies, then yes, there is some confusion. If it is more efficient to have everyone reach the green before pulling the flag (as others stated above) I think this is the preferred method.

Originally Posted by Asheville

You ask, ".... why does the order of play rule need to be different for match play than the way most people (who are concerned with speed) play?

The essence of match play is that your strategy is entirely dependent on your opponent's play. Unlike stroke play in which we compete against the golf course, in match play the match is, essentially, eighteen separate competitions. Par is meaningless in match play. In fact, no scorecard is necessary in match play.

Yes, but how does having the guy who is off go first eliminate match play strategy?  Seems to me that while it might change who actually has to go first, both players would be subject to the same rules so if you want to putt last, you simply try to put it closer on the green than your opponent.  Conversely, if you want to go first around the green, then miss the green or put in on the green farther from the hole than your opponent.  That is a slight modification from how it currently works but I can't think of many instances where I would try to play a shot differently in match play because of this change.

Originally Posted by turtleback

Because match play involves an element of strategy that is not present in stroke play.

The real question is why your initial response to almost anything is to change the rules?

I think certain rules could be simplified and/or made more intuitive and/or changed to help speed up play.

[iacas]

I'm only going to respond to the relevant, on-topic parts of your post, with a brief OT statement at the end.

Originally Posted by MEfree

I have played with a lot of players who prefer to have everyone reach the green before pulling the flag and putting and have also played with some who prefer to have the guy farthest go first even if he is off.  When you have a mix of philosophies, then yes, there is some confusion.  If it is more efficient to have everyone reach the green before pulling the flag (as others stated above) I think this is the preferred method.

It doesn't matter what's preferred if the rules state that the other is to be done. The rules govern order of play. They have no real penalty for stroke play events specifically because it's not match play - you're not playing against the one guy directly. So playing out of turn in stroke play is explicitly allowed except when it violates the rule I quoted above.

Originally Posted by MEfree

Yes, but how does having the guy who is off go first eliminate match play strategy?

What your opponent does gives you more information that may inform how you need to play. By forcing you to play before them, they're gaining the advantage of more information.

Originally Posted by MEfree

I think certain rules could be simplified and/or made more intuitive and/or changed to help speed up play.

You're grossly misusing the word "intuitive," and your typical rules discussion is NOT the topic of this thread, so this thread will not turn into that.