Opponent refused to putt in tournament play.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I think the harm would be that it makes it more confusing, not less.  Nothing could be simpler than furthest from the hole plays.

It would be a knee-jerk reaction to a "problem" that isn't really a problem.  OP had a clueless playing competitor yesterday, and Annika goofed once a bazillion years ago.

You might be right for some and I agree that the current rule is very simple.  While I typically advocate making rules simpler, my idea of simple is so that more people understand them intuitively.  We have several rules in the game that make a distinction about being on and off the green- i.e. if you are on you can mark and clean your ball but not use the pin...if you are off you can use the pin but can't normally mark and clean your ball.

I have played with a lot of players who prefer to have everyone reach the green before pulling the flag and putting and have also played with some who prefer to have the guy farthest go first even if he is off.  When you have a mix of philosophies, then yes, there is some confusion.  If it is more efficient to have everyone reach the green before pulling the flag (as others stated above) I think this is the preferred method.

The current rule is simple, period.  If a person can't understand it then he lacks the brainpower to find the golf course, much less play the game.  It doesn't matter what " a lot of players... prefer".  And it isn't more efficient if you know how to play.   Here's the incredibly complex way I play it:  I tend the flagstick for the person putting who is away, or if he prefers I remove and holding on to it I step a few feet away.  He putts, I replace the flagstick, then the next player plays his shot from off the green.  I remove the flagstick, or tend it if the next player so desires, and we all play out.  No time has been lost, no inefficiency experienced, no play delayed.  And we have followed what may be the simplest rule in the book to the letter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

You ask, ".... why does the order of play rule need to be different for match play than the way most people (who are concerned with speed) play?

The essence of match play is that your strategy is entirely dependent on your opponent's play. Unlike stroke play in which we compete against the golf course, in match play the match is, essentially, eighteen separate competitions. Par is meaningless in match play. In fact, no scorecard is necessary in match play.

Yes, but how does having the guy who is off go first eliminate match play strategy?  Seems to me that while it might change who actually has to go first, both players would be subject to the same rules so if you want to putt last, you simply try to put it closer on the green than your opponent.  Conversely, if you want to go first around the green, then miss the green or put in on the green farther from the hole than your opponent.  That is a slight modification from how it currently works but I can't think of many instances where I would try to play a shot differently in match play because of this change.

How aggressive or safe one plays can be determined by how well his opponent does.  Around the green, a lot of important information can be gained by going second, or one can put added pressure on one's opponent by making a good play ahead of him.  How those factor into play depends on the situation.  In match play I would never give up the order of play if it gave me a chance to gain an advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

Because match play involves an element of strategy that is not present in stroke play.

The real question is why your initial response to almost anything is to change the rules?

I think certain rules could be simplified and/or made more intuitive and/or changed to help speed up play.

There is absolutely nothing unintuitive about "the player who is away plays first".  As I showed in my comment above, pace of play isn't affected.

[iacas]

I agree that pace of play is unaffected. And unlike many things all it takes is ONE player who knows how to handle the situation to keep the pace of play fast.

[barbm12thtee]

There's no penalty in stroke play unless it's done to gain an advantage.

c . Playing Out of Turn

If a competitor plays out of turn, there is no penalty and the ball is played as it lies. If, however, the Committee determines that competitors have agreed to play out of turn to give one of them an advantage, they are disqualified .

Thank you for the ANSWER!

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by RayG

Before this gets turned into another thread on slow play... (which it will, they ALL do). Do NOT do this on your casual weekend rounds. Let everyone get up onto the putting surface before it gets out of hand. "No, you're away- take out the pin, no, leave the pin in, okay, take it out for me. Hold on, I'm still off, leave it back in..."

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

I agree.....unless someone really wants to go first and it's their turn under the rules.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Please listen to Ray.  This is how we should all be playing unless it's a match, and even then unless it's some official competition, use your head.  My Men's Club played ready golf in tournament play.  There is no reason not to do the same as in casual golf, aside from following ALL of the rules instead of ignoring the ones you don't like.

The current rule is simple, period.  If a person can't understand it then he lacks the brainpower to find the golf course, much less play the game.  It doesn't matter what " a lot of players... prefer".  And it isn't more efficient if you know how to play.   Here's the incredibly complex way I play it:  I tend the flagstick for the person putting who is away, or if he prefers I remove and holding on to it I step a few feet away.  He putts, I replace the flagstick, then the next player plays his shot from off the green.  I remove the flagstick, or tend it if the next player so desires, and we all play out.  No time has been lost, no inefficiency experienced, no play delayed.  And we have followed what may be the simplest rule in the book to the letter.

How aggressive or safe one plays can be determined by how well his opponent does.  Around the green, a lot of important information can be gained by going second, or one can put added pressure on one's opponent by making a good play ahead of him.  How those factor into play depends on the situation.  In match play I would never give up the order of play if it gave me a chance to gain an advantage.

There is absolutely nothing unintuitive about "the player who is away plays first".  As I showed in my comment above, pace of play isn't affected.

Originally Posted by iacas

I agree that pace of play is unaffected. And unlike many things all it takes is ONE player who knows how to handle the situation to keep the pace of play fast.

Maybe I ddin't read things correctly, but it sure sounded to me like RayG said it was faster for everyone to hit to the green before anyone started putting...it then looked like Dormie and Fourputt (among others) agreed without any dissent, but when I endorse this idea everyone jumps on me.

I agree that the person that goes second gets info from the guy who plays ahead of him, but I don't see what is wrong with this info going to the guy who is on the green (but farther from the hole) rather than the guy who is closer to the hole but off the green.  Seems like sometimes the guy who is on the green hit the better approach and sometimes it may be the guy who is off the green- I know that I would rather be 30 feet away on the green rather than 25 feet away in a bunker or in heavy rough.

It depends a lot on where you play, but I see way less than 25% of golfers who know how to play efficiently AND move along other less efficient players, so the chances of having at least one player like this in every group is pretty slim.  If this was the case, then there wouldn't be such an issue with slow play.

[Asheville]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Maybe I ddin't read things correctly, but it sure sounded to me like RayG said it was faster for everyone to hit to the green before anyone started putting...it then looked like Dormie and Fourputt (among others) agreed without any dissent, but when I endorse this idea everyone jumps on me.

I agree that the person that goes second gets info from the guy who plays ahead of him, but I don't see what is wrong with this info going to the guy who is on the green (but farther from the hole) rather than the guy who is closer to the hole but off the green.  Seems like sometimes the guy who is on the green hit the better approach and sometimes it may be the guy who is off the green- I know that I would rather be 30 feet away on the green rather than 25 feet away in a bunker or in heavy rough.

It depends a lot on where you play, but I see way less than 25% of golfers who know how to play efficiently AND move along other less efficient players, so the chances of having at least one player like this in every group is pretty slim.  If this was the case, then there wouldn't be such an issue with slow play.

You really don't understand match play, do you?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I agree that the person that goes second gets info from the guy who plays ahead of him, but I don't see what is wrong with this info going to the guy who is on the green (but farther from the hole) rather than the guy who is closer to the hole but off the green.  Seems like sometimes the guy who is on the green hit the better approach and sometimes it may be the guy who is off the green- I know that I would rather be 30 feet away on the green rather than 25 feet away in a bunker or in heavy rough.

This is where your arguments tend to lose all of their validity. You concoct bizarre situations and then try to use them as if they should make obvious to everyone else why you're right and everyone else is silly for following the Rules of Golf, because clearly the people who wrote the rules couldn't possibly have given it much thought. What if the person on the putting green is 50 feet away, and the guy on the fringe is 12 feet away?

Could you not see the person on the fringe changing his strategy if the person leaves his putt 15 feet short (and misses that)? Or perhaps holing his 50-footer?

The rule is simple, and it gives the right to the person who is CLOSER to play his shot after the opponent who is farther away plays his. If the opponent plays out of turn, it's a fairly gentle rule - it simply allows the person who was wronged to request that the opponent play a "do-over."

You frequently complain about how the rules should be simplified (while failing to be able to simplify the rules and maintain something relatively closely resembling the game we have now, while calling your rules "intuitive" when they are anything but), then come up with situations where you write as if who should gain the advantage or who hit the better shot is "obvious" (or "intuitive?") or something, when the current rule as written is actually much simpler than whatever situation you've created (judging who hit the better shot?).

The person who is farthest away plays first. If that rule were not in place, that very, very simple rule - then you'd have virtual standoffs where people simply refused to play because they insisted the opponent was to play next.

Originally Posted by MEfree

It depends a lot on where you play, but I see way less than 25% of golfers who know how to play efficiently AND move along other less efficient players, so the chances of having at least one player like this in every group is pretty slim.  If this was the case, then there wouldn't be such an issue with slow play.

So in this paragraph you not only make up a statistic based on what you see, you then use that made up statistic to derive another even more made up statistic about the likelihood that one of these players will be in each group, and then you deduce that this simple "farthest away" is responsible for slow play?

Dude. First, very, very few people play match play, and the rules specifically allow for out-of-order play in stroke play. So that's what happens - some groups will let everyone chip on. Sometimes a faster player will say "I'll putt up" while someone else is grabbing their wedge. Sometimes people will chip up and putt out and then put the flag back for their friend. Etc.

None of this second part of this is really on topic. This is a Rules discussion in the Rules of Golf forum.

[trackster]

All it really affects is who get's the advantage.  Like MEfree said it would just give it to the person on the green.  However I think that the person closest should have the advantage.  Just my 2 cents.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by phan52

I was watching when it happened and, yes, it was poor sportsmanship.  It was close enough that the American player walked off the distance to be sure. I am fairly certain they would have let it go if Annika had left it ten feet or boned it over the green.

JMO.

[Lihu]

I am a high handicap who has only been seriously playing (played something golf-like for about 2 years prior) about a year, which now includes learning to play by the rules. Three years ago a group of people playing with me taught me to tend the flag. I assumed this was the general practice when anyone is on or near the green. So, after 18 holes, this is how I had done it in casual rounds. I also learned that "away" was the farthest from the hole, at that time. Unfortunate that I learned in subsequent rounds to think the person off the green hits first, by more "experienced" golfers. Played that way until 6 months ago, when I was corrected by very experienced golfing friends to play the original way I learned. My point is that had I never learned to play the wrong way by more experienced golfers, I would never had learned bogus rules. In any case, tending the flag and observing the proper order and the true definition of "away" seems a simple enough thing to do. It is much more logical than the off green plays first bogus "rule".

[zipazoid]

Lol I love this place - this is the first time I'm seeing a thread that was started less than two days ago. I read the first post & was simply going to respond that furthest from the hole is always away...and then I read 63 posts on this apparently-clear situation.

Reminds me of where I used to work - we had a sign in the office that said 'If it ain't broke we will fix it until it is.'

[grattos]

Golf is a great game. It can show a persons true character without them even knowing. It is good to play by the rules but it is still a genteel game and one where common sense should prevail

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by iacas

This is where your arguments tend to lose all of their validity. You concoct bizarre situations and then try to use them as if they should make obvious to everyone else why you're right and everyone else is silly for following the Rules of Golf, because clearly the people who wrote the rules couldn't possibly have given it much thought. What if the person on the putting green is 50 feet away, and the guy on the fringe is 12 feet away?

Could you not see the person on the fringe changing his strategy if the person leaves his putt 15 feet short (and misses that)? Or perhaps holing his 50-footer?

The rule is simple, and it gives the right to the person who is CLOSER to play his shot after the opponent who is farther away plays his. If the opponent plays out of turn, it's a fairly gentle rule - it simply allows the person who was wronged to request that the opponent play a "do-over."

You frequently complain about how the rules should be simplified (while failing to be able to simplify the rules and maintain something relatively closely resembling the game we have now, while calling your rules "intuitive" when they are anything but), then come up with situations where you write as if who should gain the advantage or who hit the better shot is "obvious" (or "intuitive?") or something, when the current rule as written is actually much simpler than whatever situation you've created (judging who hit the better shot?).

The person who is farthest away plays first. If that rule were not in place, that very, very simple rule - then you'd have virtual standoffs where people simply refused to play because they insisted the opponent was to play next.

So in this paragraph you not only make up a statistic based on what you see, you then use that made up statistic to derive another even more made up statistic about the likelihood that one of these players will be in each group, and then you deduce that this simple "farthest away" is responsible for slow play?

Dude. First, very, very few people play match play, and the rules specifically allow for out-of-order play in stroke play. So that's what happens - some groups will let everyone chip on. Sometimes a faster player will say "I'll putt up" while someone else is grabbing their wedge. Sometimes people will chip up and putt out and then put the flag back for their friend. Etc.

None of this second part of this is really on topic. This is a Rules discussion in the Rules of Golf forum.

I agree I would rather be the guy 12 feet away on the fringe than 50 feet away on the green...in fact, I was that guy last Wednesday in Men's League and recall that we had a bit of discussion as to who would go first as I wanted to leave the pin in for my downhill putt.  It was stroke play and I think I went first, but cared so little about this rule that I don't remember.

The reason I jumped in on this is not because I believe it is an overly complicated or bad rule, but because our resident rules expert said that we should ignore the rule except in serious competition (with others seeming to agree).  This is where I have my issue. Why should the rules of golf be different than how we are advised by the experts to play non-competitive rounds?

It is true that on the Pro Golf Tours the majority of competition is stroke play (which is likely why Annika had her brain fart as most of her rounds would have been played without penalty for breaching this rule) but I have played at many golf courses where most of the competitive play (aka betting) is done on a match play basis.  A small % of my play is serious competition, so if I don't follow the rules in the majority of my other rounds, then when I get to competition, I won't be used to playing by the rules when it counts.

Basically what I am saying is that I would like to play the same way for all rounds (except a practice round where I might hit second shots) rather than having a different set of rules that are only used for serious competition.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MEfree

The reason I jumped in on this is not because I believe it is an overly complicated or bad rule, but because our resident rules expert said that we should ignore the rule except in serious competition (with others seeming to agree).

Because it's not really "ignoring the rule." It's just doing something that incurs no penalty. We see people play out of turn ALL THE TIME when they tap-in a putt, on the PGA Tour, everywhere.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

The reason I jumped in on this is not because I believe it is an overly complicated or bad rule, but because our resident rules expert said that we should ignore the rule except in serious competition (with others seeming to agree).

Because it's not really "ignoring the rule." It's just doing something that incurs no penalty. We see people play out of turn ALL THE TIME when they tap-in a putt, on the PGA Tour, everywhere.

Which is in reality following a different rule (I know that you know this Erik, it's more for general information).  Rule 22-2 says:

22-2. Ball Interfering With Play

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that another ball might interfere with his play, he may have it lifted.

A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21).

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

Originally Posted by Lihu

I am a high handicap who has only been seriously playing (played something golf-like for about 2 years prior) about a year, which now includes learning to play by the rules.

Three years ago a group of people playing with me taught me to tend the flag. I assumed this was the general practice when anyone is on or near the green. So, after 18 holes, this is how I had done it in casual rounds. I also learned that "away" was the farthest from the hole, at that time.

Unfortunate that I learned in subsequent rounds to think the person off the green hits first, by more "experienced" golfers.

Played that way until 6 months ago, when I was corrected by very experienced golfing friends to play the original way I learned.

My point is that had I never learned to play the wrong way by more experienced golfers, I would never had learned bogus rules.

In any case, tending the flag and observing the proper order and the true definition of "away" seems a simple enough thing to do. It is much more logical than the off green plays first bogus "rule".

Word of mouth is one of poorest ways to learn the rules.  I have been involved in so many discussions on the course with players who were absolutely certain about a certain procedure or rule, yet they weren't even close (taking relief is one of the most abused procedures).  Pick up a rule book and keep it in your bag.  I've carried a current rule book in my bag for 25 years.  It takes up very little space, and it's cleared up quite a few friendly arguments over the years.

[Rulesman]

I agree I would rather be the guy 12 feet away on the fringe than 50 feet away on the green...in fact, I was that guy last Wednesday in Men's League and recall that we had a bit of discussion as to who would go first as I wanted to leave the pin in for my downhill putt.  It was stroke play and I think I went first, but cared so little about this rule that I don't remember.

Regardless of the distances involved, the comment in the rule about speeding up play is deliberate. If you played first and it saved time without disturbing your fellow competitor, then well done to both of you.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Regardless of the distances involved, the comment in the rule about speeding up play is deliberate. If you played first and it saved time without disturbing your fellow competitor, then well done to both of you.

Originally Posted by iacas

Because it's not really "ignoring the rule." It's just doing something that incurs no penalty. We see people play out of turn ALL THE TIME when they tap-in a putt, on the PGA Tour, everywhere.

That didn't seem to work out so well for Annika- she may not have received a "penalty" but she was forced to replay a shot she had holed...I fail to understand how that is not a penalty (or how it saves time)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MEfree

That didn't seem to work out so well for Annika- she may not have received a "penalty" but she was forced to replay a shot she had holed...I fail to understand how that is not a penalty (or how it saves time)

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by MEfree

That didn't seem to work out so well for Annika- she may not have received a "penalty" but she was forced to replay a shot she had holed...I fail to understand how that is not a penalty (or how it saves time)

Really?  THIS is your point?

She was playing match play.  On the PGA tour they play stroke play.