Opponent refused to putt in tournament play.

[David in FL]

The issue isn't with the rules.  The issue lies with those who choose to ignore/modify those rules on occasion.  Those are the people you should call out.  I'll cheerfully take any criticism you direct at me and explain/argue my decision.  But in doing so, you won't hear me complain about the rule......you'll only hear my personal justification for my own actions.

I'd also offer that when the serious/experienced player does ignore/modify a rule, it's generally only in those cases when his experience and understanding of the rules tells him that the result will be no different than had the rules been followed to the letter.  As is the case for the single hole in which my group has incorporated the local rule allowing for a provisional ball to be played for a ball potentially lost in a water hazard.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by MEfree

You are right that this is a pretty trivial rule and that most here don't see it as a problem.  I guess I just don't like having rules that are routinely violated (but with no penalty for this one) even by serious players.

Are we still talking about order of play? If there is no penalty in stroke play rules if playing out of order, then I do not see violation of it very serious. I would say the rules do not dictate the order in this case, they propose an order. Based most likely on general advancement on the course and safety. What if the order play would be totally removed from rules, would that be fine?

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by luu5

What if the order play would be totally removed from rules, would that be fine?

There would still need to be something in about the potential for collusion in strokeplay and 'learning' in matchplay.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by David in FL

I have a 2 inch tap in.  I tap it in.  I've played out of turn, but there certainly isn't any down-side because no opponent is going to require me to replay the shot, and if they did, there's no chance that I'd miss it.

By tapping in the putt and speeding up the overall pace of play, doing so "made sense"......

If I have a tap-in in match play and my opponent doesn't give it to me, I usually ask if it is alright if I finish. I've only had one guy say no. It couldn't have been more than 8 inches, but he made me mark it.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by phan52

If I have a tap-in in match play and my opponent doesn't give it to me, I usually ask if it is alright if I finish. I've only had one guy say no. It couldn't have been more than 8 inches, but he made me mark it.

Weird.....

[bplewis24]

I refuse to read this any further, so if anybody has anything particularly memorable or funny to write, make sure to put it in bold so I can see it.  Otherwise, I have no idea what is being discussed anymore and it just makes my head hurt.

[Chunky]

Hey, if she was further away and wouldn't take her turn, I would say that waiting would put her in a too much time penalty situation. Unfortunately, tournaments don't track or penalize for this.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Chunky

Hey, if she was further away and wouldn't take her turn, I would say that waiting would put her in a too much time penalty situation. Unfortunately, tournaments don't track or penalize for this.

That's what Rule 6-7 is there for. It doesn't need any Pace of Play condition.

[Asheville]

My advice for cases like this is to produce a Rule book and settle it. That presupposes a Rule book to be within reach and that it be a current issue. However, in the situation above even a copy of the 1744 Leith Links rules would do. Their Rule 12, "He, whose ball lyes farthest from the Hole is obliged to play first."

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Asheville

My advice for cases like this is to produce a Rule book and settle it. That presupposes a Rule book to be within reach and that it be a current issue. However, in the situation above even a copy of the 1744 Leith Links rules would do. Their Rule 12, "He, whose ball lyes farthest from the Hole is obliged to play first."

Truly one of the oldest rules of the game which is still observed nearly intact.

[iacas]

This thread is still going on?

MEfree, guess what: stroke play and match play are different forms of the game.

We don't allow "conceded shots" (or even entire holes) in stroke play. There are PLENTY of things that are different in stroke play than in match play. Heck, even penalties which result in two strokes often result in loss of hole penalties in match play (i.e. you can do something to lose a hole before your opponent even hits a shot - or even before YOU have hit a shot).

Match play and stroke play are already different. So there's no need to make them more the same. Celebrate their differences. The rules are in place for a reason.

Someone else said it, but good players will play out of turn while still honoring their obligation to protect the field when it makes sense to do so. Pace of play is one of the primary reasons why it would make sense to do so. The rules sanction such activity, and only draw the line at "when done so someone gains a distinct advantage" (paraphrased). The rules are firmer in match play because, again for what strikes me as obvious reasons, it's one-on-one.

I once played out of turn in a high school match on a par three, the 12th at Lake View. My opponent let me, in that he clearly saw me about to hit, watched me hit, and only when I put my shot to 25 feet or so on the green did he tell me I'd played out of turn and that I'd have to play again. While I thought it was a little sleazy of him to knowingly let me play, to give him the option, it was completely within the rules. His sleaziness (or what I took as such) simply fueled me, so I played a better second shot to tap-in range for a birdie.

Why did I play out of turn? Brain fart, pure and simple. I'd tied the 11th but didn't have the honor on the 10th, but had the first nine holes of the match before that, so I was "in the habit" of going first. Brain fart. But it gave him the option.

And to be clear, I felt it was a little sleazy because I will do all I can short of distracting someone mid-swing to stop someone from violating the rules. I've stopped people from standing on the line of their partners hitting shots or putts, etc. I consider that the honest, fairest way to play. He did not, but it was within the rules. It's just - to me - sleazy, like making someone finish out a two-foot putt when they have two putts to win the hole, or conceding the putt a second before they're about to hit it, or something (see also: much of Seve's match play strategies).

Originally Posted by MEfree

My point was that I asked the rule be explained to a NEW golfer who likely does not understand the difference between competitor, opponent, match play or stroke play.  Also, even with your tap in example, your explanation is still inconsistent with how RayG and Fourputt are advising us to play.

So what? They aren't playing by the Rules anyway. They give kids around here five strikes when they're young. Or tees from which to hit the ball. All sports coddle their newer players. Golf is no different.

Originally Posted by MEfree

My answer is that you are both asked to play one way most of the time and another infrequently. My response was that the match play rules could be tweaked to make it more consistent with how most of us normally play (guys off the green go before guys on the green), but everyone called this heresy.  I couldn't understand why this was such a bad idea and most of the criticism (except yours with your opinion about my proposal being more confusing) seemed more like personal attacks rather than helping me to understand why my thinking was wrong.

Because your solution makes no sense. Because the rules are always very different, and things are LOST - strategy, a clear and simple rule, and so on - by trying to do what you think should be done.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I'm going all "Erik style" on this one ;) ...

I'm on the secret menu at In-n-Out. Right above Animal Style.