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wrecker

Trying to hit the draw

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Hello guys new member here and this is my first thread.

My question is using the new ball flight laws, i open the club face a couple of degrees and then try to swing a diagonal path into the back of the ball that is more in to out than the club face angle.

So as i set the club face open at address do i have the back of the hand facing target and then coming back to the ball on the diagonal path in to out do i try to get back of hand facing target upon impact.

Reason i ask this is when i am coming into impact because of the diagonal path into the ball my back of left hand seems to want to trace the diagonal path which is opening face even more causing me to push slice.

Thanks for any advice

Martin

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You want to feel your right hand turn over down through the ball on that same path, assuming you are right handed.

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Originally Posted by wrecker

Hello guys new member here and this is my first thread.

My question is using the new ball flight laws, i open the club face a couple of degrees and then try to swing a diagonal path into the back of the ball that is more in to out than the club face angle.

So as i set the club face open at address do i have the back of the hand facing target and then coming back to the ball on the diagonal path in to out do i try to get back of hand facing target upon impact.

Reason i ask this is when i am coming into impact because of the diagonal path into the ball my back of left hand seems to want to trace the diagonal path which is opening face even more causing me to push slice.

Thanks for any advice

Martin

There is no need to open the face at address.  Assuming we are talking about an iron ... you are hitting the ball on the way down, prior to the bottom of the arc of the swing (which is where, theoretically, the club face would square up) so it is going to naturally be slightly open to the target on its own with no need for pre-manipulation.  Go back to a square clubface at address and see what happens.

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or just stop pushing with the right hand   ; )

I don't feel anything different in my wrists and hands when working/emphasizing head path in to out.  I mainly just try to keep my right elbow under control, initiate with my lower body, and swing everything the same - maybe stretching it out a bit on the follow through out to first base a bit.

Any time I've tried to REALLY hit a hook shot and overdo it with wrists/turnover or excessively closed head, or extreme in to out path, I usually hit great practice swings and then tank the actual shot.  So I try to live very much in close proximity to my normal shot (i.e., small adjustments to affect ball flight = good, big adjustments = risky)

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Originally Posted by Golfingdad

There is no need to open the face at address.  Assuming we are talking about an iron ... you are hitting the ball on the way down, prior to the bottom of the arc of the swing (which is where, theoretically, the club face would square up) so it is going to naturally be slightly open to the target on its own with no need for pre-manipulation.  Go back to a square clubface at address and see what happens.

Interesting you would say that because that is also how they taught my at the 5SK school.  It could be dependant on each persons swing, not sure.  However, at address they had me line the face to the right of the target.

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Originally Posted by SloverUT

However, at address they had me line the face to the right of the target.

that's the trick we all need to learn, isn't it?  (getting the face during the strike to equal what we set up at address).

face angle control is the holy grail (IMHO)

once you can kind of assume that - then it's just a matter of getting that face angle aligned to club path (which is much easier to replicate) that gives you the shot you want.  (as you clearly noted you are doing at the start)

I'm always working to that 1 degree open, 3 degrees club path (little push draw).  It's crazy.   I'm 1 degree (+/- 6), and 3 degrees (+/-2)  (on a good day, maybe a great day - so much more variation at impact with face than pretty much any other metric)

but back to the OP:

With that, I'd still go with what G-Dad suggests, leave the face angle alone and see if you are getting an incremental improvement just with the in/out swing work you are trying.  i.e., change one thing at a time.  then adjust the setup once that seems consistent

else - get thee to a Trackman

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Ty the reason i try to open face at address is because i have had a couple of lessons with a stack and tilt instructor and he advocates that at address open the face slightly.

But it does make sense what u say about the face will be slightly open as i hit down with an iron....saying that what would u suggest for a driver.

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Once I got in the habit of an inside to out swing I started naturally hitting a draw. I think that's a main key to hitting this shot. Focusing on rotating the wrists and things like that tends to exaggerate my ball flight leading to more of a big push draw or duck hook.

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Originally Posted by SloverUT

Interesting you would say that because that is also how they taught my at the 5SK school.  It could be dependant on each persons swing, not sure.  However, at address they had me line the face to the right of the target.

It DOESN'T go without saying - so I should probably preface every piece of swing advice I ever try to spew out with it - that I don't know squat. ;)  The real answer, I'm guessing, is probably that everybody is different.  They've never told me to open my club face at address, but I can guess why ... my miss pre-5SK was already a push or push-cut, so they probably felt no need to "enhance" that.  Maybe your miss is a straight draw or pull or something??

In wrecker's case, I was going off of what was given, and I subscribe to the same school of teaching as the doctor from the old joke ...

"Hey doc, it hurts when I move my arm like this, what should I do?"

"Umm, don't move your arm like that"

... What I mean is that he said he was opening the club face at address and the result was a push slice.  It's certainly possible that the clubface is fine and his path is simply nowhere near where he needs it to be, however, while he's working on the path fix, it seems like closing that clubface down, at least as an experiment, is worth a try.

Think of it this way:  If he opens the club face 4* at address and is able to return that club face to that same point, and his path is currently 2* to the right, well then he's going to hit push-cuts.  If he closes that clubface back to square at address he should start hitting draws.  Now, they may be straight draws instead of push draws, but thats ok because now he can open the clubface at address a bit (but less than before) and maybe find the shape he's looking for.

Again, to reiterate to the OP ... I don't know squat, so take all of this with a grain of salt. ;)

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Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Again, to reiterate to the OP ... I don't know squat, so take all of this with a grain of salt. ;)

I don't know, all you did is recommend he try something, I thought it was a good take.  I tend to come into the ball with the face more open than it was at address, Oh I also tend to come into the ball with it more closed than it was.

OP, Just find the club face address position that produces the least amount of big misses and go from there working on the swing.  If you need to make an adjustment later on you should know it.  This is Key#5 stuff after all.  Pretty tough to be consistent with it, even for good players.

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Well let me state that I am not saying anyone is right or wrong.  I am a golf newbie to be sure.  I just know Golfingdad and I have both been to the 5SK school and gotten lessons from similar people.  That is why I found it interesting :)

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Thanks for all your input guys I do appreciate your help....the main question I need answering is if I have face slightly open at address with backnof hand facing target ...do I return it to the same condition at impact with swing path going in to out. I have just read iacas post about the strong grip vs weak and this makes alot of sense to me....as since my lessons I have weakened my grip and my misses are either snap hook or push slice (to much manipulation through impact causing sprayed shots) I think if I can take a strong grip I can swing in to out without manipulation. ....gona try it tomorrow I will let u know how it goes.
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Originally Posted by wrecker

the main question I need answering is if I have face slightly open at address ...do I return it to the same condition at impact with swing path going in to out.

Yes.**

You want the face slightly open to the target at impact along with the swing path pointed slightly to the right of that.  Regardless of whatever else goes on ... if those two things are true, then you will hit a push draw of some degree.

** Again, you're swing path doesn't necessarily have to be in-to-out, but rather "in-square-in."  The bottom of the arc is the "square" part and it happens, ideally, 4-6" inches in front of the ball.  That is what creates the outward path at impact.

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I didn't hit a draw really today with my first attempt at it. I still had some pushes. But all hits had great ball flight and distance. I did hook a good bit too, but I was purposely over rolling my wrists, probably too early. But I also hit a few really good accurate shots. I am thrilled at the progress made in one large bucket of range balls. Most if my good hits were really smooth and felt great. Can't wait to get out there tomorrow
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There is no need to open the face at address.  Assuming we are talking about an iron ... you are hitting the ball on the way down, prior to the bottom of the arc of the swing (which is where, theoretically, the club face would square up) so it is going to naturally be slightly open to the target on its own with no need for pre-manipulation.  Go back to a square clubface at address and see what happens.

Yup. Nailed it.

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Golfingdad ty so much ....today I went to the range and out of about 60 balls I hit 90 percent with a lovely draw focusing on a square club face and a in to out swing path.....what I did find was the more I tried to hit the inside quadrant of the ball the more I automatically pushed hips forward to get to the inside(something I could never get was the feel for pushing hips forward). Also the clubface opens slightly on impact because of trying to hit the inside of the ball...sending the ball out to the right with a little draw to bring it back. felt amazing....my bad shot was a slight push where I think I was ok with swing path but face matched path and resulted in a straight push. Cant wait to try again haha I love golf now ;)
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Hi, this is my first post on this site.  Wrecker, I'm a scratch golfer, so I'll try to help you with some input on drawing / fading.  For me, I go through stretches where I naturally hit a draw, and I also go through stages where I naturally hit a fade.  In the case for me, I've found that, during the time when I'm naturally hitting a draw, in order to fade the ball, I make my grip weaker.  What this does is changes the angle of the clubface throughout my swing, with it being more "open" throughout.  By it being open, it allows me to hit a fade.  I also work really hard on my impact position, focusing on holding off on my club release for longer.  On the other hand, the aspect you're trying to accomplish, when I'm in a period where I'm playing a fade naturally, in order to hit a draw, I strengthen my grip.  This "closes" the club face throughout the swing, creating an opposite effect of the "weaker" grip.  In case you don't know what it means to strengthen and weaken your grip, basically there is what is called a "neutral" grip.  This is when you're gripping the club and you can look straight down at your left hand and see 2 knuckles, those of the index finger and the middle finger.  Strengthening your grip is turning you left hand to the right on the club, and creating a visual of more than 2 knuckles.  Weakening your grip is turning your left hand to the left, creating a visual of less than 2 knuckles.  Hope this tip helps.  Something to always remember, no matter if you're trying to hit a draw or fade, you still have to turn through the shot all the way with your body.  Don't think that in order to hit a fade, you have to be "slower" on your turn through the shot, or that by hitting a draw you have to release the club with your hands more.  Either shot still requires you to turn through the shot properly.

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