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Pappy091

Stroke and distance vs pace of play

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How do you reconcile the two. Obviously when you are fairly certain that the ball is OB/lost then you can hit a provisional but what about those times when you don't realize until you get there that the ball is gone? When a group is close behind you do you drive back and rehit? If not, do you still count that round towards your HC?
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Originally Posted by Pappy091

How do you reconcile the two. Obviously when you are fairly certain that the ball is OB/lost then you can hit a provisional but what about those times when you don't realize until you get there that the ball is gone? When a group is close behind you do you drive back and rehit? If not, do you still count that round towards your HC?

Since it is not an every round occurrence, you can still post for handicap.  You have 2 choices on how to proceed.

You can just drop in the area, call it what you like (or what your buddies will agree to) for the round score, then for handicap, post par plus any handicap strokes you are entitled to on that hole.  This is how the handicap manual requires a returned hole to be scored when it is not played under the rules of golf.  If you ignore the requirement to return to the tee and still play out the hole, then this is how you would have to score the hole for handicap.

The manual also offers the option of picking up and not finishing the hole, in which case you would make your best estimate of what you would most likely have scored had you finished the under the rules.  Imagining that you returned to the tee, put your 3rd stroke in the fairway, then played your normal game from there to hole, that is the other score which could be returned, but only if you don't finish playing out the hole while ignoring the rules.

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappy091

How do you reconcile the two. Obviously when you are fairly certain that the ball is OB/lost then you can hit a provisional but what about those times when you don't realize until you get there that the ball is gone? When a group is close behind you do you drive back and rehit? If not, do you still count that round towards your HC?

Since it is not an every round occurrence, you can still post for handicap.  You have 2 choices on how to proceed.

You can just drop in the area, call it what you like (or what your buddies will agree to) for the round score, then for handicap, post par plus any handicap strokes you are entitled to on that hole.  This is how the handicap manual requires a returned hole to be scored when it is not played under the rules of golf.  If you ignore the requirement to return to the tee and still play out the hole, then this is how you would have to score the hole for handicap.

The manual also offers the option of picking up and not finishing the hole, in which case you would make your best estimate of what you would most likely have scored had you finished the under the rules.  Imagining that you returned to the tee, put your 3rd stroke in the fairway, then played your normal game from there to hole, that is the other score which could be returned, but only if you don't finish playing out the hole while ignoring the rules.

The first option is for when you haven't played the hole at all - I wouldn't think you can exercise that option once you've started playing the hole.  After all, if you've already lost a ball and would be hitting 3 off the tee, then realistically you'd end up with a lot worse than par + handicap strokes.

Not that a stroke or two on any single hole matters much in the grand scheme of things, but technically it seems you should always use the option of estimating the unfinished hole once you've started it, especially if you're in trouble off the tee.

It also seems that the most accurate way of estimating would be to drop, add 2 penalty strokes, and actually finish the hole.

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One of my local course enforces a rule that all lost balls to be played like a ball in water hazard.  This is to keep the pace of golf moving along on busy day.  Frankly, without this rule, 5 hour weekend play can easily go longer.    How do I score a lost ball in this case?

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Originally Posted by rkim291968

One of my local course enforces a rule that all lost balls to be played like a ball in water hazard.  This is to keep the pace of golf moving along on busy day.  Frankly, without this rule, 5 hour weekend play can easily go longer.    How do I score a lost ball in this case?

Courses don't have the authority to change the rules of golf like that (not even with a local rule), but if you're playing in a league or tournament where everyone else is doing it, you'll obviously have to as well.

If you're not playing in a league or tournament, but need to adhere to this policy to not get kicked off the course, at least add 2 strokes. That would be closer to doing it right than only adding one. (Since if you did it right by going back and replaying your previous shot, then even assuming you didn't lose that one, you'd be laying 2 more than you originally were, not 1 more.)

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Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Since it is not an every round occurrence, you can still post for handicap.  You have 2 choices on how to proceed.

You can just drop in the area, call it what you like (or what your buddies will agree to) for the round score, then for handicap, post par plus any handicap strokes you are entitled to on that hole.  This is how the handicap manual requires a returned hole to be scored when it is not played under the rules of golf.  If you ignore the requirement to return to the tee and still play out the hole, then this is how you would have to score the hole for handicap.

The manual also offers the option of picking up and not finishing the hole, in which case you would make your best estimate of what you would most likely have scored had you finished the under the rules.  Imagining that you returned to the tee, put your 3rd stroke in the fairway, then played your normal game from there to hole, that is the other score which could be returned, but only if you don't finish playing out the hole while ignoring the rules.

The first option is for when you haven't played the hole at all - I wouldn't think you can exercise that option once you've started playing the hole.  After all, if you've already lost a ball and would be hitting 3 off the tee, then realistically you'd end up with a lot worse than par + handicap strokes.

Not that a stroke or two on any single hole matters much in the grand scheme of things, but technically it seems you should always use the option of estimating the unfinished hole once you've started it, especially if you're in trouble off the tee.

It also seems that the most accurate way of estimating would be to drop, add 2 penalty strokes, and actually finish the hole.

Don't correct someone when you don't know the rule.  I got busted for making the same assumption a month ago.  This is from the handicap manual:

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Principles of The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the principles of the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

Good enough?

Originally Posted by rkim291968

One of my local course enforces a rule that all lost balls to be played like a ball in water hazard.  This is to keep the pace of golf moving along on busy day.  Frankly, without this rule, 5 hour weekend play can easily go longer.    How do I score a lost ball in this case?

See the quoted rule from the handicap manual that I posted right above.  The course is not allowed to create such a local rule, so if their policy is rigid, then if you want to post the score, you have to go by the manual.

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Since it is not an every round occurrence, you can still post for handicap.  You have 2 choices on how to proceed.

You can just drop in the area, call it what you like (or what your buddies will agree to) for the round score, then for handicap, post par plus any handicap strokes you are entitled to on that hole.  This is how the handicap manual requires a returned hole to be scored when it is not played under the rules of golf.  If you ignore the requirement to return to the tee and still play out the hole, then this is how you would have to score the hole for handicap.

The manual also offers the option of picking up and not finishing the hole, in which case you would make your best estimate of what you would most likely have scored had you finished the under the rules.  Imagining that you returned to the tee, put your 3rd stroke in the fairway, then played your normal game from there to hole, that is the other score which could be returned, but only if you don't finish playing out the hole while ignoring the rules.

The first option is for when you haven't played the hole at all - I wouldn't think you can exercise that option once you've started playing the hole.  After all, if you've already lost a ball and would be hitting 3 off the tee, then realistically you'd end up with a lot worse than par + handicap strokes.

Not that a stroke or two on any single hole matters much in the grand scheme of things, but technically it seems you should always use the option of estimating the unfinished hole once you've started it, especially if you're in trouble off the tee.

It also seems that the most accurate way of estimating would be to drop, add 2 penalty strokes, and actually finish the hole.

Don't correct someone when you don't know the rule.  I got busted for making the same assumption a month ago.  This is from the handicap manual:

Quote:

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Principles of The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the principles of the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

Good enough?

First, I didn't correct you, I only challenged what you wrote. That's why I was careful to use phrases like "I wouldn't think...", and "It seems..."

Second, so you're saying that if someone doesn't go back and hit again on a lost ball then they are not playing under the principles of the rules of golf?  Well, isn't the same true if they fail to hole out a 6" putt? Yet you wouldn't take par + handicap strokes in that scenario - you'd take whatever you're lying before the putt and add one.

How do you (or the USGA if their position is indeed what you claim) rationalize taking par + handicap if you've started playing a hole and then quit after already racking up a bunch of strokes? (I'm not saying a lack of a rationale refutes your argument, I'm just curious if there is one.)

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Reading & interpreting the manual 4 putts quoted, I think once you started the hole with intention of counting the score under the rule of golf, you must "eat" the +2 stroke penalty.   That's fair and within the principle of golf.

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Originally Posted by rkim291968

Reading & interpreting the manual 4 putts quoted, I think once you started the hole with intention of counting the score under the rule of golf, you must "eat" the +2 stroke penalty.   That's fair and within the principle of golf.

To be clear, that's what I'm saying. Fourputt is saying that no, you also have the option of just taking par + any handicap strokes for that hole.

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I play a lot of super twilight rounds.   Sometimes, I can't finish the last few holes.  But I still count the score using the rule 4 putts quoted above.  The holes I could not finish, I count par + handicap stroke for each hole.   I sometimes skip a hole or two if there is a slow group in front.   I apply the same par + handicap stroke rule.    I just need to make sure that I played at least 13 holes - a minimum number of holes for 18 hole round to be counted.

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I can think of some courses, and some holes in particular, where not finding the tee shot after what seemed like a good shot happens fairly often (and even more in the fall).

To go back to the tee on a busy weekend would make you very unpopular (at least) and might get much uglier than that (at worst).

I hate when it happens because once it does I don't have a "score" for that round. If we are playing a money game on those courses where it's likely to happen we just play match play so it's just a loss on that hole.

P.S. I realize that people can still turn in a score for handicap purposes as has been explained above, but since I don't have a handicap it's my choice to consider that round a non-score and assume that I might have hit even more balls OB or lost if I had gone back to the tee (so who knows what my "real" score would have been on the hole).

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Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Second, so you're saying that if someone doesn't go back and hit again on a lost ball then they are not playing under the principles of the rules of golf?  Well, isn't the same true if they fail to hole out a 6" putt? Yet you wouldn't take par + handicap strokes in that scenario - you'd take whatever you're lying before the putt and add one.

How do you (or the USGA if their position is indeed what you claim) rationalize taking par + handicap if you've started playing a hole and then quit after already racking up a bunch of strokes? (I'm not saying a lack of a rationale refutes your argument, I'm just curious if there is one.)

That's covered as well, and is somewhat different than either "not playing the hole" or not playing it "under the rules"....

4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score . The most likely score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit, defined in Section 4-3 . This most likely score should be preceded by an "X." (See Decision 4-1/1 .)

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With a packed courses, a few lost balls can slow down play. Its the strange ones, you know were a guy think he hits it 300 yards, drives down and doesn't find it, when its 100 yards behind him.

OB, people should hit a provisional. Honestly i think OB should be considered a lateral hazard, which the course can mark it that way if they way to. All it takes is not posting up white steaks and putting in red ones i think.

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Originally Posted by saevel25

With a packed courses, a few lost balls can slow down play. Its the strange ones, you know were a guy think he hits it 300 yards, drives down and doesn't find it, when its 100 yards behind him.

OB, people should hit a provisional. Honestly i think OB should be considered a lateral hazard, which the course can mark it that way if they way to. All it takes is not posting up white steaks and putting in red ones i think.

Except that OB prohibits play, while you're perfectly capable of playing from a lateral hazard if you can find your ball.

OB is often quite literally off the course property. I don't think homeowners want golfers playing from their back yards, off their pool decks, out of their gardens, amidst their swingsets, etc.

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That's a good point

Or the USGA could just make OB play like a lateral hazard, instead of stroke and distance. Except you can't play it from OB. So its an automatic 2 club lengths.

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Originally Posted by saevel25

That's a good point

Or the USGA could just make OB play like a lateral hazard, instead of stroke and distance. Except you can't play it from OB. So its an automatic 2 club lengths.

Please no......not again.

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Sorry, just an idea, i like idears, Notice i said, could, not should. I really don't care much, just an opinion

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The USGA Handicap Manual creates an interesting nuance between "Holes Not Played or Not Played Under the Principles of The Rules of Golf" and "Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes".  It would appear from the examples that "Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes" is mainly intended for match play.  All the examples deal with putting and match play scenarios.  Of course, if one is lying 5 in the bunker and your opponent is lying 2 ten feet from the hole, one can still use this particular handicap rule.

"Holes Not Played or Not Played Under the Principles of the Rules of Golf" appears to apply to our unexpected "lost ball" scenario or any other situation where a score for a hole is not achieved through play under the Rules.

One does not have a choice between the two handicap rules.  If a player pumps two O.B. and announces "I am done with this hole", that is not considered an unfinished hole.  He records par plus whatever handicap strokes he gets along with an "x".  In a sense, the handicap system "penalizes" a player who does not play a hole or plays a hole without following the Rules.  Now one might think that writing a lower score than one likely would have recorded is hardly a penalty.  Except consider that the player who routinely quits a hole or bends/breaks the Rules is going to record a lower score for handicap purposes.  So he is going to have a lower handicap and he will be less competitive against players who play by the Rules and complete every hole.  Yes, the guy who picks up mid-hole is going to have a vanity handicap and he is going to be ripe for the picking.

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