Who plays with a cheat??

[dfreuter415]

Originally Posted by Parker0065

In any tournament setting you have to protect the field and not calling them out is as bad as cheating yourself.

As far as casual rounds or playing with friends or coworkers, I could care less what they do if we're not playing for money.

Well stated.

[Dabzy]

@TJBam

Well, its funny because once over, I would of let it bother me, but now, its my own game I concentrate on, if the lad had won it, or was inline to pocket a bit of sweet money, I probably would of mentioned my concerns to the secretary, he's a nice fella, though, I have told a few members who I know there about said round, so no doubt, word will get around and people who have a long standing at the club can keep their eyes open. At the end of the day, people who cheat will only ever ultimately hurt themselves, they may think they are getting one over on people, but, mud sticks. A family friend who is a plumber we use went berserk when I mentioned it to him, his grandad played at the course, his dad did and now him and his son do, and he's not the type of person to hold his tongue, so, god help them if they end up paired with him and they pull any fast ones! :D

@barbm12tee

Yeah, I walked off there happy with how I played, and it was just the 16th and the dodgy rule they told me that broke my round, but, it some respect, I should of known the rules, since then, I've tried to learn the rules so I dont have to rely on anyone else, I'm still learning, and this is one of the reasons I've joined a online forum, because if in doubt about anything, at least I can post if and when I have an issue with a situation I may find myself in. :)

And your all a nice bunch too, so that's a bonus! ;) hehehe

Dabz

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by rkim291968

Your point about taking an unplayable is well noted.  I should do that.

But ... man, you are full of it.   I don't play in league, tournament, or play for money.   I keep the score to keep track of my progress.   You are citing the Rule and giving me an "LOL" with a sniding remark to a total stranger sharing their thought with others.   And you are a "forum leader?"   Good leadership you have, LOL.   Grow up.

Sorry.  I just find it amusing when people say they try to keep an honest score and then turn around and try to rationalize and justify their particular brand of cheating.  Especially when it directly affects their score.  I distinguish this from a situation, say, where a ball is unexpectedly lost (no provisional) and the course is full so taking the walk of shame to re-hit is impracticable and the player drops a ball and says he is lying 3.  That at least puts him at the right stroke count.  While it is still wrong he is doing it for convenience and pace of play reasons, not to reduce his score.  As compared to the player who does the same thing and takes a penalty stroke for dropping and says he is lying 2.  Who just gave himself a free stroke off card.

But taking relief when the rules allow for it but just ignoring the penalty stroke?  No one ever hurt themselves or scratched or dinged up their club by writing the correct score on the scorecard.

[Lash]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Sorry.  I just find it amusing when people say they try to keep an honest score and then turn around and try to rationalize and justify their particular brand of cheating.  Especially when it directly affects their score.  I distinguish this from a situation, say, where a ball is unexpectedly lost (no provisional) and the course is full so taking the walk of shame to re-hit is impracticable and the player drops a ball and says he is lying 3.  That at least puts him at the right stroke count.  While it is still wrong he is doing it for convenience and pace of play reasons, not to reduce his score.  As compared to the player who does the same thing and takes a penalty stroke for dropping and says he is lying 2.  Who just gave himself a free stroke off card.

But taking relief when the rules allow for it but just ignoring the penalty stroke?  No one ever hurt themselves or scratched or dinged up their club by writing the correct score on the scorecard.

He's right though...your attitude is one of the worst things about golf and what keeps a lot of people away.

I don't have a rule book and don't really need one because I'm not playing in tournaments so I'm not gonna waste time looking up every rule. I learn as I go and encounter new things. I had never looked this rule up, and wasn't sure if you had to take a stroke when it's unplayable. I had been told once that if you land on a sprinkler head you can move the ball with a drop without a penalty, and assumed a rock would be pretty much the same thing.

Apparently I was wrong about that, but instead of your holier-than-thou rant against us deplorable cheaters, it seems a better approach would be to kindly let someone know they should add a penalty. Calling me a cheater implies I know the rule and am doing it wrong, and that's a pretty rude assumption to make on your part.

If more established golfers would have an attitude of trying to help people rather than jumping down their throats for not knowing and following every rule, a lot of people probably wouldn't think of golf as such a hoity-toity sport full of arrogant snobs.

[butt3r3dt0ast]

Originally Posted by Dabzy

Oh, I've played with a few, I actually touched on the subject in another thread.

First off, before I go on, I've just started to play Sunday competitions and when I can, the midweek medal, hence my handicap, lol, I wasnt confident enough before, but now, I'm hitting my handicap while out, so thought, I may as well, anyway, I'm not big on the rules, I want to learn though, but, I will tell my group on the first tee that they'll have to keep me right and ask them if they mind if I query them when we're out as I'm not sure, most are fine, lovely blokes who just want to help me understand the sport...

I was playing in my first ever stroke play competition, I was usually frightened of stroke play, but thought I'm going to get no better unless I play the format, so, I signed up for a competition and ended up playing with two lads who were buds. So, off we went, and I was having a blinder round, really gunning for it, enough so, that one of them said "If you keep going, your in for a chance", fair do's, but really, I didnt want to know, anyway, that wasnt the problem, one lad, who played off 16 was having a nightmare, spraying balls with his driver, on the hardest hole on my course, the par 5 12th, he swung one out of bounds, then, played another off the tea, sent it scurrying across the floor, I played mine, hit a good'un to the left of the fairway, and his mate popped one straight as a die for miles... So off we went, then, the first lad who tee'd off, took his second, whacked it left into grass that goes up to the waist right in front of a whinny bush. It went in like a rocket... So off we went to look for it, I was looking inside the whinny bush to see if it went into it, then heard "Here it is", I turned around and there was a ball, sitting not down in the grass, but, on top of a bit that was trampled on... I thought "Mmmmm, okay"... So he then proceeded to hit it straight into the whinny bush on his next shot. Moving on, he called an unplayable, took the ball back to a bit smaller stuff and we carried on with the hole.

So, played a few more holes, and on our 15th, which is a lovely par 4, the same lad drove it right towards the middle of two trees, I saw it come down, pinpointed exactly where it landed, me and the other lad tee'd off, then, we headed down to look for his ball, with my hands behind my back, I scanned every inch of the area where it landed, walking forwards and backwards slowly, there was no ball there... But, while walking back towards the middle of  the two trees I mentioned, with them behind me, I heard a "Oh, here it is", I turned, and there she was, sitting there, shining like a shit house door!

So, onto the 16th, a tricky dog leg right par 5, second hardest hole on the course, A driver is too big off the tee, the hole goes forward then turns right and heads down to a stream, and on the right of the bend is a few trees that go down to the stream, and on the left side of the stream, is a wooded area that encroaches the line to the pin. Theres not much room at all, so, what I thought is, I'll lay up, take on the trees to the right hand side of the bend (Because once you go past them, you head down a bank), which will leave me a shot to the green. So, tee shot done, put it where I wanted... Pulled out my 7 iron, give it a whack... Hit the bugger left and it landed in the wooded area on the left behind the stream... So, I dropped a ball, tried again, bang, flew exactly where I wanted, straight over the top of them and finally landed on the fairway. So, as we were walking over the stream, I said to the lads, so, do I have to look for that one in the tree or can I play my provisional? And, you guessed it, they told me that since its not out of bounds I'm still obliged to look... And, we found it, right smack bang in the middle of this sodding wood, to cut this long story short, think pinball... I finished that hole in 12 shots, wrecked my card, and, well, I was gutted.

Finally, on the 18th, I sprayed two drives right into some proper heavy rough, roughly in the same area, and the lad who was playing well did the same with his ball, the other lad who had the mare give up and was putting in a NR... So, we wandered down, I couldnt find my balls, found 4 others, but mine, lost... As I was contemplating doing the lonely walk back to the tee box for another bash, them two were looking for his ball, and even though I was a bit back, I was still within ear shot of their voices, I heard the one who give up say "What you playing with, a taylormade?", I turned around and saw him lift a ball up from the grass, the other lad went "Yeah, with a blue mark on it", then the lad who had the ball said "Are you sure?" I was like... Are they having a giraffe, so with that, they put the ball 'back', he got out, I give up and wandered back to the tee box for another pop, now, I never hit a hook shot, but sure enough, I sent one hooking well left into the driving range... And I give up... Carded a NR... The lad who was playing well finished with something like net 63.7 or something, but, 61 won it. I should of been wandering down the 18th a broken man, but, I give it my all, tried my best, them cheating didnt bother me, as next time I get put with them, I'll be watching them like a hawk, and some golf rules I know now that I didnt know then, like picking up balls without notifying everyone their intention of going to identifying them, as well as the rule I didnt know... I didnt have to look for my sodding ball in the woods, I could of just played my provisional and carried on.

You live and learn, and that day, I learned a hell of a lot!

Dabz

As much as I enjoyed your story - I equally enjoyed reading your english/australian? accent! Thanks for sharing

[phan52]

At our club we are always playing for money (at least a sizable group of us do), so the cheaters are found out pretty quickly and they are drummed out of the money games.As far as them posting scores that are lower than what they would should have, fine. Let them have the lower handicap. Usually you would want them to be in the group so you can take their money, but we always play four-ball and it isn't fair to their partner. And they are watched very closely in tournaments. Frankly, if I were in that category I would have to quit the club. Those guys have no pride whatsoever.

The guys to really watch are the guys who manipulate their handicap at a level a little higher than the eyeball test would suggest. If a guy plays a lot and his handicap never moves (especially double digit handicappers), something is fishy. It is impossible to keep shooting scores inside a very small range.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Lash

He's right though...your attitude is one of the worst things about golf and what keeps a lot of people away.

I don't have a rule book and don't really need one because I'm not playing in tournaments so I'm not gonna waste time looking up every rule. I learn as I go and encounter new things. I had never looked this rule up, and wasn't sure if you had to take a stroke when it's unplayable. I had been told once that if you land on a sprinkler head you can move the ball with a drop without a penalty, and assumed a rock would be pretty much the same thing.

Apparently I was wrong about that, but instead of your holier-than-thou rant against us deplorable cheaters, it seems a better approach would be to kindly let someone know they should add a penalty. Calling me a cheater implies I know the rule and am doing it wrong, and that's a pretty rude assumption to make on your part.

If more established golfers would have an attitude of trying to help people rather than jumping down their throats for not knowing and following every rule, a lot of people probably wouldn't think of golf as such a hoity-toity sport full of arrogant snobs.

I help people all the time on the course when asked .  Otherwise I could not care less about how someone plays or counts their score when I am in the same group with them (assuming no match or tournament involved).  But when we are talking about cheating and someone claims the high ground but then rationalizes their particular brad of cheating I'm going to call a spade a spade.  I do not care how you play, but when people post nonsense about the rules on a discussion board I'm going to correct it.  And when someone is claiming they play by the rules but then list the ways they don't- well I'm going to laugh and poke a little fun at them.  And note, the guy I was posting to knew very well he was cheating.  I quote:

"The only time that I would "cheat" is when my ball is sitting on a rock.   I won't hesitate to move the ball to a softer spot.   At my age, getting hurt is a death sentence to my golf career.  I'd rather keep playing golf than risking losing my hand and be out of golf for 3 months."

He knew it was cheating but he was justifying it on some BS nonsense about hurting himself.  Play however you want, but don't try to rationalize YOUR way of cheating while claiming to keep an honest score.

And just a word of advice.  Getting your rules knowledge from what someone tells you, or analogizing situations that are not analogous (man-made sprinkler head vs. natural rock or root) is not a good way to learn the rules.  There is a rule book and many resources on the net that can help you learn the rules including the rules forum here where there are some experts who know their stuff.  But proudly proclaiming ignorance or disregard of the rules isn't going to get very far in a rules discussion.

[Lash]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I help people all the time on the course when asked.  Otherwise I could not care less about how someone plays or counts their score when I am in the same group with them (assuming no match or tournament involved).  But when we are talking about cheating and someone claims the high ground but then rationalizes their particular brad of cheating I'm going to call a spade a spade.  I do not care how you play, but when people post nonsense about the rules on a discussion board I'm going to correct it.  And when someone is claiming they play by the rules but then list the ways they don't- well I'm going to laugh and poke a little fun at them.  And note, the guy I was posting to knew very well he was cheating.  I quote:

"The only time that I would "cheat" is when my ball is sitting on a rock.   I won't hesitate to move the ball to a softer spot.   At my age, getting hurt is a death sentence to my golf career.  I'd rather keep playing golf than risking losing my hand and be out of golf for 3 months."

He knew it was cheating but he was justifying it on some BS nonsense about hurting himself.  Play however you want, but don't try to rationalize YOUR way of cheating while claiming to keep an honest score.

And just a word of advice.  Getting your rules knowledge from what someone tells you, or analogizing situations that are not analogous (man-made sprinkler head vs. natural rock or root) is not a good way to learn the rules.  There is a rule book and many resources on the net that can help you learn the rules including the rules forum here where there are some experts who know their stuff.  But proudly proclaiming ignorance or disregard of the rules isn't going to get very far in a rules discussion.

This isn't a rules discussion, it's a golf discussion about playing with people who intentionally cheat. Nobody asked you for help, but you're quick to jump in a snide remark to make sure these cheaters are put in their place.

Post however you want, but don't try to rationalize YOUR way of being pretentious while claiming to be helpful.

And just a word of advice, understanding context in a thread and the purpose of a post in a thread can help you better understand how to get your message across. Maybe then you could help others be as smart as you are without coming across as an over-bearing, haughty snob who jumps at the chance to call others out for the sake of feeling superior.

[rkim291968]

" But proudly proclaiming ignorance or disregard of the rules isn't going to get very far in a rules discussion."

This wasn't a rule discussion post.   This was about "who plays with a cheat."   You made it into a rule discussion and made all kind of assumptions about me and another poster.    Your responses speak for themselves as you seem to be obsessed with the issue.   They also tell everyone about your maturity (or lack of).   I don't know how old you are but my previous comment to you about "grow up" still stands.   Learn to respect others' responses, don't put words in others' mouth, etc..   When you do that, others will respect and enjoy your posts.

BTW, quote the rules in the Golf Rules section.   That's where it is more appropriate.

[Dabzy]

- Butt3r3dt0ast

As much as I enjoyed your story - I equally enjoyed reading your english/australian? accent! Thanks for sharing

Lol, I'm from the North-East of England, all flat caps and pigeons... I tend to type what I'm thinking and it just rolls off the fingers! ;) hehehe

Dabz

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by rkim291968

" But proudly proclaiming ignorance or disregard of the rules isn't going to get very far in a rules discussion."

This wasn't a rule discussion post.   This was about "who plays with a cheat."   You made it into a rule discussion and made all kind of assumptions about me and another poster.    Your responses speak for themselves as you seem to be obsessed with the issue.   They also tell everyone about your maturity (or lack of).   I don't know how old you are but my previous comment to you about "grow up" still stands.   Learn to respect others' responses, don't put words in others' mouth, etc..   When you do that, others will respect and enjoy your posts.

BTW, quote the rules in the Golf Rules section.   That's where it is more appropriate.

Silly me.  A thread about cheating that doesn't have to do with the rules.  Who'd have thought it.

[jimmer1609]

I recently found out that a guy a play with DOES NOT count a ball OB as a drop unless it goes into the water !!! I always wondered why he was shooting around my score... Doesn't bother me though because we aren't playing for money and I am basically out there playing to beat my score...

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by phan52

It is impossible to keep shooting scores inside a very small range.

How I wished that were true.....

[phan52]

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

It is impossible to keep shooting scores inside a very small range.

Originally Posted by David in FL

How I wished that were true.....

I DID say, for double digit handicappers.

But it is essentially true for anybody over twenty scores. Just look in the paper on Monday morning at the PGA scores, when it is limited to only four scores. The ranges for the best players in the world are pretty eye-opening most of the time. But for double digit handicappers, it can become a beacon for cheaters. When a 19 handicapper who plays a lot has 9-10 94's on his last twenty, that is a guy who a handicap committee should take a close look at.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I play with one.  It is probably the reason I joined this posting board - I wanted to see if others had problems with this.

The thing is - he is a pretty damn good golfer.  Hits the ball great.  Just has a little problem with short game and a big problem with course management.  His crime is that he finds a way to never let the 8's to the card - by some convenient forgetting of strokes, creative explanation or interpretation of the rules, or in extreme cases - I'd have to say outright cheating.  If he is looking for an errant tee shot by himself - you can basically guarantee that:

1. he will find it

2. it will be in bounds

3. it will have a pretty decent lie

4. it will have a pretty decent angle to the green

He likes to say that the rules I try to hold him to might be in the book, but that golfers don't really play that way.  A quick story from a couple weeks ago - he sorta duffs the tee shot and is 240 to the green.  Big hill on the right.  Of course he is going 3-wood off the deck.  Huge slice a mile in the air and a mile right OB.  Drops one and repeats.  I have him lying 5 and 240 from the green.  Says he'll check for them and maybe just drop out of the hole.  Goes way up the hill by the OB stakes and of course finds the first one.  Where he is hitting from looks to be OB to everyone involved - but of course we are a mile away and can't actually prove it - but everyone knows.  Ends up with bogey or something.  Probably should have been a 9 or so.

About a year and a half ago, I watched him super close for the back 9 one day.  I put down for him what I would have scored him as.  At the end, the score he gave was 6 strokes less for that 9.

And like some of you - it would probably not bother me a whole lot.  You see this all the time.  However, he is constant with the passive aggressive ways of letting everyone know that he had the best score and his handicap is better than everyone's.  He'll start in about how you should do things to get better and how he'd like to see you start managing the course and how you had a great round because he only beat you by 5 strokes.  It is hard to take when you saw him cheat (like in the example above) by 4 strokes on ONE HOLE!

Ultimately I had to quit playing with him on a regular basis just for my own sanity.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Effington

In your situation, I'd probably remind your friend that he didn't really have a better round than you.  However, it's not really important and nothing to lose friends over.

Golf is a hard game, and every body lies about their score.  If you are betting on the winner, though, you both need to be scored in the same manner.

Wrong.  Everybody doesn't lie about their score.  I don't, nor do most of the people I play with.

Originally Posted by Lash

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

Sorry.  I just find it amusing when people say they try to keep an honest score and then turn around and try to rationalize and justify their particular brand of cheating.  Especially when it directly affects their score.  I distinguish this from a situation, say, where a ball is unexpectedly lost (no provisional) and the course is full so taking the walk of shame to re-hit is impracticable and the player drops a ball and says he is lying 3.  That at least puts him at the right stroke count.  While it is still wrong he is doing it for convenience and pace of play reasons, not to reduce his score.  As compared to the player who does the same thing and takes a penalty stroke for dropping and says he is lying 2.  Who just gave himself a free stroke off card.

But taking relief when the rules allow for it but just ignoring the penalty stroke?  No one ever hurt themselves or scratched or dinged up their club by writing the correct score on the scorecard.

He's right though...your attitude is one of the worst things about golf and what keeps a lot of people away.

I don't have a rule book and don't really need one because I'm not playing in tournaments so I'm not gonna waste time looking up every rule. I learn as I go and encounter new things. I had never looked this rule up, and wasn't sure if you had to take a stroke when it's unplayable. I had been told once that if you land on a sprinkler head you can move the ball with a drop without a penalty, and assumed a rock would be pretty much the same thing.

Apparently I was wrong about that, but instead of your holier-than-thou rant against us deplorable cheaters, it seems a better approach would be to kindly let someone know they should add a penalty. Calling me a cheater implies I know the rule and am doing it wrong, and that's a pretty rude assumption to make on your part.

If more established golfers would have an attitude of trying to help people rather than jumping down their throats for not knowing and following every rule, a lot of people probably wouldn't think of golf as such a hoity-toity sport full of arrogant snobs.

The worst way in the world to learn the rules is to learn by word of mouth.  Spend a couple of bucks and buy a rule book.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Wrong.  Everybody doesn't lie about their score.  I don't, nor do most of the people I play with.

The worst way in the world to learn the rules is to learn by word of mouth.  Spend a couple of bucks and buy a rule book.

USGA membership is what, $25?..... and they get a golf hat from the US Open venue and their very own copy of the rules.

Or just go here and read and learn, fo free!

http://www.usga.org/Rules.aspx?id=7788

[inthehole]

I play with a "fluffer" - he always fluffs up his ball so he has a nice lie from the fairway or rough.    Last round, I made one of my best shots of the year due to the degree of difficulty - about 70 yards out & ball was on a bare spot in the fairway with grass all around it ... I picked it clean off the hardpan & put it to tap in range with him right there watching.

I always think through example a point would be made with him without saying anything, but never seems to happen ... we don't play for money, just bragging rights - even so, it's tough to compete against someone who has an advantage over you on almost every shot !!