course handicap index variances

[Hacker James]

I took a look at a few other score cards that would seem to use the handicap system with a  broader scope.

One course has four sets of tees black/blue/white/gold. Women play from either white or gold, but even though they are the same tees as the men use, they just use separate indices and slopes.

Another course has only three sets Blue/White/Red.  On the box for the white tees there are two sets of numbers on the same line marked thusly:  70.2/122/GOLD 67.7/116.  Now since there are no actual Gold colored tees, I am assuming that is for Seniors using the white tees.  The red tees have their own numbers 74.1/127 and nearly 500 yards shorter than the whites.

The score card I referred to in my first post have the three, but each with its own indices. The Red tees are labeled Forward Tees not Women's.

I like the 2nd one better as it gives more choices, and makes adjustments accordingly.

I am sure most of you have read the article in Golf Digest a couple months ago "Tee it Forward".

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by MEfree

So in my example of the two 30 index players, one male and the other female- let's suppose they are competing from the SAME set of tees, does either the man or women get/give shots?  If it was two men or two women competing against each other, they would play even, correct?  Not necessarily so for a man vs. woman.

Assume a Male slope of 122 and a Female slope of 141 for the set of tees they are playing and tell me who should be giving who shots (if any).

The woman gets 5 strokes.  What's so hard about that?

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by David in FL

The woman gets 5 strokes.  What's so hard about that?

Nothing, but I am pretty sure it is the WRONG ANSWER.  How did you compute it?

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Nothing, but I am pretty sure it is the WRONG ANSWER.  How did you compute it?

By taking their individual handicap index and converting to a course handicap based on the slope of the tees they're playing.  The man's course handicap is 32.  The woman's is 37.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Nothing, but I am pretty sure it is the WRONG ANSWER.  How did you compute it?

The USGA Course Handicap calculator says it's the RIGHT ANSWER.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by David in FL

By taking their individual handicap index and converting to a course handicap based on the slope of the tees they're playing.  The man's course handicap is 32.  The woman's is 37.

But what about the difference in course rating?

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by MEfree

But what about the difference in course rating?

I thought the course rating determined a scratch player's handicap and the slope determined the handicap otherwise?

[Slice of Life]

Ah, confirmed...

" The rating established for the scratch golfer is known as the Course Rating. There is also a rating for the bogey player known as the Bogey Rating™. This Bogey Rating is not normally published but is used to determine a Slope Rating. The Slope Rating is an evaluation of the relative difficulty of a course for players other than scratch"

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by MEfree

But what about the difference in course rating?

The course rating has nothing to do with determining a player's course handicap from a given set of tees unless two competitors are playing from a different set of tees from each other or there's a difference in published men's and women's ratings from the same tees.  You didn't mention that in your example, so I just calculated based on slope....

[Dabzy]

I went to the doctor and asked if I could get a vagina on the NHS so I could use the red tee boxes when playing golf... He told me to get out!

DAMN!!!!! :D

Dabz

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Ah, confirmed...

"The rating established for the scratch golfer is known as the Course Rating. There is also a rating for the bogey player known as the Bogey Rating™. This Bogey Rating is not normally published but is used to determine a Slope Rating. The Slope Rating is an evaluation of the relative difficulty of a course for players other than scratch"

Yes, so how many shots should the man be giving the woman?  Assume they both have an index of 30  and are both playing the white tees at the River Course at Keystone (CR/Slope 67.2 for men and 72.3/141 for Ladies).  I am pretty sure the correct answer is 10 NOT the 5 shots David easily came up with.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by David in FL

The course rating has nothing to do with determining a player's course handicap from a given set of tees unless two competitors are playing from a different set of tees from each other.

Correct IF BOTH ARE MEN OR BOTH ARE WOMEN.  Not as straight forward when one is a man and one is a woman and they have DIFFERENT course ratings for the same set of tees.  What you have to look at is NOT whether they are playing from the same tees or not, but whether the tees they are playing from have the same CR for their respective sex.  Not as simple as you thought, is it?

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Correct IF BOTH ARE MEN OR BOTH ARE WOMEN.  Not as straight forward when one is a man and one is a woman and they have DIFFERENT course ratings for the same set of tees.  What you have to look at is NOT whether they are playing from the same tees or not, but whether the tees they are playing from have the same CR for their respective sex.  Not as simple as you thought, is it?

Just editted my last response.  Your example only mentioned a change in slope, so I assumed the same CR.  If the CR is also different (likely) then you simply adjust the delta in course handicap by the difference in CR for the tees, exactly as you would if 2 men were playing from different sets of tees.

Yep.  Simple.

Had you included the CR info in your example, my answer would have changed.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Yes, so how many shots should the man be giving the woman?  Assume they both have an index of 30  and are both playing the white tees at the River Course at Keystone (CR/Slope 67.2 for men and 72.3/141 for Ladies).  I am pretty sure the correct answer is 10 NOT the 5 shots David easily came up with.

You sure? I thought that's why the slope rating for those tees is different for both genders.

Originally Posted by MEfree

Correct IF BOTH ARE MEN OR BOTH ARE WOMEN.  Not as straight forward when one is a man and one is a woman and they have DIFFERENT course ratings for the same set of tees.  What you have to look at is NOT whether they are playing from the same tees or not, but whether the tees they are playing from have the same CR for their respective sex.  Not as simple as you thought, is it?

I don't believe so. If they were both men, or both women, neither would get a shot. But I'm no expert...

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Just editted my last response.  Your example only mentioned a change in slope, so I assumed the same CR.  If the CR is also different (likely) then you simply adjust the delta in course handicap by the difference in CR for the tees, exactly as you would if 2 men were playing from different sets of tees.

Yep.  Simple.

Had you included the CR info in your example, my answer would have changed.

Why would you assume the same CR?  Give me one example of where an identical set of tees have the same course rating with a Male slope of 122 and Woman's slope of 141.  If that is too hard, then give me one example of where an identical set of tees have the same CR for men and women .

I love it how everyone on this forum assumes things are "simple" yet we constantly see mistakes and misunderstandings.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

You sure? I thought that's why the slope rating for those tees is different for both genders.

I don't believe so. If they were both men, or both women, neither would get a shot. But I'm no expert...

according to http://golf.about.com/cs/handicapping/a/hfaq_manvwoman.htm I have it right with the man/woman example.

You are correct that if the were BOTH men or BOTH women, then no shots would be given as they would have identical slopes/CRs when playing identical tees.  Not so when you mix the sexes.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Why would you assume the same CR?  Give me one example of where an identical set of tees have the same course rating with a Male slope of 122 and Woman's slope of 141.  If that is too hard, then give me one example of where an identical set of tees have the same CR for men and women.

I love it how everyone on this forum assumes things are "simple" yet we constantly see mistakes and misunderstandings.

I thought the course rating didn't affect handicappers, only scratch players. Can someone explain that to me then?

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Why would you assume the same CR?  Give me one example of where an identical set of tees have the same course rating with a Male slope of 122 and Woman's slope of 141.  If that is too hard, then give me one example of where an identical set of tees have the same CR for men and women.

I love it how everyone on this forum assumes things are "simple" yet we constantly see mistakes and misunderstandings.

You gave an example.  You're right, I shouldn't have assumed you would give me an accurate example with complete information.  I should have asked about the CR.

Doesn't make it any more difficult.......and I assure you, many of us continue to be amused by the things you find "difficult".

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by David in FL

The course rating has nothing to do with determining a player's course handicap from a given set of tees unless two competitors are playing from a different set of tees from each other or there's a difference in published men's and women's ratings from the same tees.  You didn't mention that in your example, so I just calculated based on slope....