Forged Callaway irons - Question

[tomvk77]

askgolfguru tried this once. He hit shots blindfolded. casted and forged he could not tell de difference feel wise.

You do see that ball flight is different. Forged irons have a more penetrating flight.

[Oldest Member]

My son, who is an assistant professional, plays Callaway X Forged. He says that they are the best irons he has ever played in terms of feel and ball flight. When I read him your letter, he suggested that the probable reason for the distance difference between your Miura irons and your cast Callaway irons is that each set has different specs. Although he has not researched this, he suggested that your Callaways might have stronger lofts and lighter shafts. He also suggested that you compare the shaft lengths of your two sets.

Good luck in your search for the set that is best for you.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Youre not getting it. He is not saying that forged clubs can't feel softer than cast. He's saying they can't feel softer than cast BECAUSE they are forged. The ones you like, whichever they are, are designed differently than the cast ones you don't like and that is the reason for the difference. It would be like me test driving a black BMW and a white Yugo and then coming to the conclusion that black cars run smoother than white cars.

C'mon Golfingdad, everyone knows black cars run smoother and are faster than white cars.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by spam

Ok so there is a study but again feel is in the eye of the beholder. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Science is ok for some people to stand on. I my self have played cast and now am playing forged and I like the feel of the club better. I don't believe that makes me wrong. I have played cast my whole life and have found that I like forged better due to the feel I get whether real or perceived. But again this is not a argument on the fact of feel. Thank you shorty for the study you found it was good reading. And also thank you for finally posting your thoughts on the clubs.

So basically you're saying what you think you feel trumps science?  Most people that are vocal about their preference for forged irons have no idea the Vokey wedges in their bag are cast, not forged.

Golf is a mental game, so if playing forged irons makes you feel like you have some advantage then you should stick with them.

[jamo]

Ok so there is a study but again feel is in the eye of the beholder. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Science is ok for some people to stand on. I my self have played cast and now am playing forged and I like the feel of the club better. I don't believe that makes me wrong. I have played cast my whole life and have found that I like forged better due to the feel I get whether real or perceived. But again this is not a argument on the fact of feel. Thank you shorty for the study you found it was good reading. And also thank you for finally posting your thoughts on the clubs.

Sure. But for the study they rounded up a bunch of beholders, and did an eye test.

[spam]

Again this is a argument that will never be won for either side. Perceived and fact. They are both valid. And if I remember right the study had one pro hit both clubs but maybe I read I wrong. But I did find it informative and like I also said it blew my mi d how much your brain can make ya feel as though you have felt something you have not

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by tomvk77

askgolfguru tried this once. He hit shots blindfolded. casted and forged he could not tell de difference feel wise.

You do see that ball flight is different. Forged irons have a more penetrating flight.

I think you are making the same mistake that spam was making.  Forged irons, in general, fall into the "players" iron category, more often than not.  Those types of irons tend to have more penetrating (sounds cooler than "lower" I guess) ball flight because of things like smaller cavity back, or lack of cavity back, size of club head, where the CG is, etc, etc ... none of which are affected by how the club was formed.  Those are all affected by how the club is DESIGNED, not made.

Originally Posted by Oldest Member

My son, who is an assistant professional, plays Callaway X Forged. He says that they are the best irons he has ever played in terms of feel and ball flight. When I read him your letter, he suggested that the probable reason for the distance difference between your Miura irons and your cast Callaway irons is that each set has different specs. Although he has not researched this, he suggested that your Callaways might have stronger lofts and lighter shafts. He also suggested that you compare the shaft lengths of your two sets.

Good luck in your search for the set that is best for you.

Bingo.  There you go.

Originally Posted by spam

.... Perceived and fact. They are both valid. ...

I can't argue with that.  I don't mean I agree with it, but I just have no idea what to say.  I'm dumbfounded.

[spam]

Ok so can we end the argument on the forged and cast so this guy can get his question answered lol. It was fun debating but now I feel guilty for us all high jacking his thread. Golfingdad honestly after I posted my comment I was dumbfounded by the same part and I posted it lol sounded good in my head but not on paper lmao. Either way both sides have good points and after reading the study believe there is no real difference other then what you perceive as feel. Whether its sons ball flight or just club design and shaft combination. Sorry rmgolfer this got so far from subject.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by spam

Ok so can we end the argument on the forged and cast so this guy can get his question answered

Yes!  Good point.

OP, I have tested Callaway irons a couple of times (Shameless plug here: http://thesandtrap.com/t/58537/the-sand-trap-visits-callaway-golf-razr-fit-driver-fitting-at-the-ely-callaway-performance-center/0_30 and here: http://thesandtrap.com/t/63809/callaway-visit-tons-of-in-hand-pics-of-the-2013-callaway-razr-xtreme-x-hot-driver-x-hot-fairway-x-hot-irons-x-forged-irons/0_30 ) and can only say that I really, really like the X Forged.

I prefer a little more forgiveness (I'd say the X Forged doesn't have a whole lot) so the X Hot Pro's are a little more my style, but the X Forged were gorgeous and I really liked them as well.  If you're a 6 handicap, then you probably will do just fine with the X Forged.

Good luck.

Originally Posted by spam

Golfingdad honestly after I posted my comment I was dumbfounded by the same part and I posted it lol sounded good in my head but not on paper lmao.

LOL ... we all write or say silly things sometimes.  (Look at Ernest Jones' signature for a teaser into something I once said that was the dumbest thing ever)  Cheers!

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by tomvk77

Forged irons have a more penetrating flight.

Ummm....what??  Ballflight has nothing to do with whether a club is cast or forged.  About your comments on the Askgolfguru test, he did is blindfolded and with headphones on, so all he was testing was feel from vibration coming up through the shaft.  Feel is SOUND and forged clubs sound different than cast clubs do.

[delav]

To the OP:

The Callaway game improvement irons that you're playing are a full club longer than your Muira's because they are game improvement clubs.  These clubs have lighter shafts, increased MOI (perimeter weighting), and decreased lofts... all things that help the average golfer hit the ball straighter and farther.  They are also manufactured using casting process, which, truly has no bearing on feel.

The x-forged are good clubs, I liked the 2009s the best.  The new 2013s are nice too, but I'm not a PX fan and never hit one with a DG shaft.  These clubs will have more traditional lofts and shaft weights.  They will be easier to hit than your Muira's, but likely shorter in distance and harder to hit than your GI clubs.  They will also feel different, due to the design of the head and the distribution of mass.

My suggestion would be to go see a club fitter and look at swing speed, shaft weights, ball speed, launch angle and spin.  Get fit for clubs you can consistently hit a precise direction and a distance.

As for the forged/cast/feel debate... Shorty is correct.  I'll digress without using the term 'buttery' for the betterment of the interweb community. I was once told 'not to confuse correlation with causation' during a statistics course, and that saying directly applies here.

Forged Clubs

Typically, irons manufactured using a forging process are muscle-backs or players cavity-backs (small cavities).  Therefore, these head designs will produce a different feel and ball flight based on their center of gravity and concentration of mass (MOI).  These attributes are correlated with forged clubs because of the design of the head.  These attribute are not caused by the manufacturing process. Players clubs are forged because they can be easily bent to the loft/lie/bounce that better players require.  Forging is more time intensive from a manufacturing and materials standpoint, which is where your cost comes from... in addition to needing to recoup R&D; costs over a lower sales volume.

Cast Clubs

Cast clubs are often designed with moderate to extreme perimeter weighting.  It would be difficult to forge a club with a large cavity and highly-manipulated weight distribution... melted metal and a mold work much better here.  It's also much easier to churn them out at high volume and low cost...like hotwheels.  This is important because most amateur players don't want to pay $1,000 for a set of irons. These clubs have a lower center of gravity, which produces higher trajectory and spin, so manufacturers also decreased loft to compensate... there is part of your added distance.  When you move weight from the center to the bottom/perimeter of a club, the feel changes.    These is less mass behind impact, and the feel off the face is a bit harsher.  The more perimeter weighing, the thinner the face, the harsher the feel.

The Bottom Line

Comparing them side by side, the average Joe would say the forged club is softer.  He might wax philosophically about how pure the shots feel, or how boring his ball flight is, thanks to those Japanese forgings... The enlightened golfer will smile and know that it's all physics.

And for what it's worth... I play very often and score reasonably well, and I have cast clubs in my bag.  They feel pretty darn good, flight the ball decently, and let me have some good rounds on bad days.   I've got forged blades in the garage if you'd like them.

delav

[arturo28mx]

The steel used in forged clubs is softer than the steel used in cast clubs. I cannot prove it but I am sure this contributes to some degree to the "buttery" feel of forged clubs.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by arturo28mx

The steel used in forged clubs is softer than the steel used in cast clubs. I cannot prove it but I am sure this contributes to some degree to the "buttery" feel of forged clubs.

You most certainly can't prove it, because it's not true.

And how can you be "sure" of something for which there is no informed evidence. Again, it is design not process you are feeling.

And to be pedantic, it's "hearing" not feeling.

Has it occurred to you that you are hitting a soft golf ball?

Rather than bring the discussion back several days - or years, as the case may be, do some reading.

There is no such thing as buttery "feel" of forged irons. Geez.

[Mr. Desmond]

Let's see, I also have Miura PP-9003, in Aerotech i-80. I game the XHot Pros in KBS Tour 90. I have demoed the Callaway X Forged 2013.

I will tell you that my experience is: The Callaway XHots and XHot Pros are longer than Miuras and the X Forged.

I found the X Forged 2013 easier to hit than the PP-9003. Maybe it's the higher bounce on the XForged that made it easier, but I thought the XForged went through the turf better in my brief time with them.

If you want something that is easy to hit, and better looking than the XHots with distance , I'd say purchase the XHot Pros as a second set, but select the shaft that fits you. My SS is not high with a driver - 88-91, maybe a bit more as I learn to hit with the right hand - and the KBS Tour 90 R flex gets the ball up easily.

As to feel between the XForged and XHot Pros - feel goes out the window after a couple of weeks and better scores. When you hit the ball solid, you get a solid feel. Just get some decent wedges.

[RMgolfer]

Excellent and thought provoking discussion everyone. I appreciate all of the informative analysis. Many issues were identified and I now have much food for thought. Many thanks to all who contributed!

[spam]

I still think this horse has been beat to death on the feel thing. Shorty your study you posted opened my eyes thank you for that. The feel thing is scientifically proven to be false. But we all have out own perception in which science can not change so shorty's argument is won on the science part. But will never be won with the perception part. So for the sake of argument either start a new thread on the subject or agree to disagree as I have. Firged vs cast has been a argument that will never be won its almost like a holy war lol.i know my x forged are 1020 steel I'm not sure about other clubs or that much about steel but if its a softer steel then it may support the previously post about softer forged clubs. Not saying anyone is right just pointing it out about the steel used on my clubs. Have a great time golfing as we all should

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by spam

The feel thing is scientifically proven to be false.

What science would that be?  Theres nothing scientific about having a bunch of pros hit some clubs and asking if they can tell a difference and Askgolfguru never has anything scientific about his tests, which is something that even he has admitted in the past.

Nice try but if you understand anything about metal and the difference between the 2 manufacturing processes, it should be pretty obvious that there is a difference.  When the talk comes to cast vs forged, a lot of people dont understand the differences between the 2 processes and even fewer understand what those processes do to the metal and how it changes the metal on a molecular level.

[Lihu]

What science would that be?  Theres nothing scientific about having a bunch of pros hit some clubs and asking if they can tell a difference and Askgolfguru never has anything scientific about his tests, which is something that even he has admitted in the past. Nice try but if you understand anything about metal and the difference between the 2 manufacturing processes, it should be pretty obvious that there is a difference.  When the talk comes to cast vs forged, a lot of people dont understand the differences between the 2 processes and even fewer understand what those processes do to the metal and how it changes the metal on a molecular level.

It would only make a true difference if the head material flexes on impact, and any feel from that flex is not masked by the grip.