Player of the Year- Tiger, Scott, Phil, Rose, Dufner, Kuchar, Snedeker?

[MEfree]

Who do you think will win POY?  My prediction is that it very well may be the player who wins the Fed Ex Cup title-  I would be very surprised if this is not the case if Phil, Tiger or Scott takes the title.  Ultimately, anyone with 3 or more wins and the Fed Ex Cup title will make a strong case for POY.

It becomes a bit more complicated if someone with only 1 or 2 total wins takes the Fed Ex Cup...In that case, it is probably between Tiger, Phil and Adam Scott.  A 3rd win by Phil or Adam would help their case a lot while a 6th win by Tiger would mean they would need the FEC title to overcome him.

Here is the current Fed Ex Cup Standings

Y-T-D statistics through: The Barclays   Aug 25, 2013

RANK THIS WEEK	RANK LAST WEEK	PLAYER	EVENTS	POINTS	# OF WINS	# OF TOP 10'S	POINTS BEHIND LEAD	RESET POINTS
1	1	Tiger Woods	13	4,009	5	8
2	11	Adam Scott	13	3,847	2	6	162
3	4	Phil Mickelson	18	2,624	2	7	1,385
4	2	Matt Kuchar	20	2,540	2	7	1,469
5	7	Justin Rose	14	2,397	1	6	1,612
6	3	Brandt Snedeker	20	2,218	2	8	1,791

Here is the $ list

Y-T-D statistics through: The Barclays   Aug 25, 2013

RANK THIS WEEK	RANK LAST WEEK	PLAYER	EVENTS	MONEY	YTD VICTORIES
1	1	Tiger Woods	13	8,215,119	5
2	3	Phil Mickelson	18	5,224,727	2
3	2	Matt Kuchar	20	5,100,008	2
4	4	Brandt Snedeker	20	4,913,261	2
5	7	Adam Scott	13	4,646,513	2
6	8	Justin Rose	14	3,691,881	1

Here is the scoring averages

Y-T-D statistics through: The Barclays   Aug 25, 2013

RANK THIS WEEK	RANK LAST WEEK	PLAYER	ROUNDS	AVG	TOTAL STROKES	TOTAL ADJUSTMENT	TOTAL ROUNDS
1	1	Tiger Woods	49	68.617	3,358	- 64.362	48
2	2	Adam Scott	49	69.021	3,378	- 64.997	48
3	3	Justin Rose	50	69.135	3,371	- 52.497	48
4	4	Henrik Stenson	53	69.460	3,664	- 52.090	52
5	5	Charl Schwartzel	57	69.487	3,954	- 62.712	56
6	6	Matt Kuchar	81	69.504	5,260	- 47.186	75
7	9	Phil Mickelson	66	69.649	4,632	- 35.138	66
8	7	Sergio Garcia	53	69.652	3,614	- 61.747	51
9	12	Webb Simpson	80	69.776	5,353	- 50.062	76
10	8	Brandt Snedeker	67	69.784	4,715	- 39.483	67

[Hacker James]

is POY a recognized title?  What are the pre-requisites?  I am not being facetious, just can  see this getting into a long, contested, thread about what opinions should or should not be based on.

And plus, I truly do not know what POY entails.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Hacker James

is POY a recognized title?  What are the pre-requisites?  I am not being facetious, just can  see this getting into a long, contested, thread about what opinions should or should not be based on.

And plus, I truly do not know what POY entails.

The PGA Tour Player of the Year is voted on by the players.  For the first time this year, ballots get send out immediately after the Tour Championship as that is now the official end of the season.  In the past, it came after the last of the fall series events.

I could be wrong, but I think the criteria is left up to each individual player to decide and then cast his vote.  Some players may value major titles more while others may be influenced by things like total victories, money earned, scoring average, etc.

The PGA of America also awards a POY, which is based on points according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGA_Tour

Player and rookie of the year awards [ edit source | edit beta ]

PGA Tour players compete for two player of the year awards. The PGA Player of the Year award dates back to 1948 and is awarded by the PGA of America . Since 1982 the winner has been selected using a points system with points awarded for wins, money list position and scoring average. The PGA Tour Player of the Year award, ^[47] also known as the Jack Nicklaus Trophy , is administered by the PGA Tour and was introduced in 1990; the recipient is selected by the tour players by ballot, although the results are not released other than to say who has won. More often than not the same player wins both awards; in fact, as seen in the table below, the PGA and PGA Tour Players of the Year have been the same every year from 1992 through 2012. The Rookie of the Year award was also introduced in 1990. ^[48] Players are eligible in their first season of PGA Tour membership; several of the winners had a good deal of international success before their PGA Tour rookie season, and some have been in their thirties when they won the award.

Year	PGA Player of the Year	PGA Tour Player of the Year	PGA Tour Rookie of the Year	Comeback Player of the Year
2012	Rory McIlroy	Rory McIlroy	John Huh	None
2011	Luke Donald	Luke Donald	Keegan Bradley	None [49]
2010	Jim Furyk	Jim Furyk	Rickie Fowler	Stuart Appleby
2009	Tiger Woods	Tiger Woods	Marc Leishman	None [50]
2008	Pádraig Harrington	Pádraig Harrington	Andrés Romero	Dudley Hart
2007	Tiger Woods	Tiger Woods	Brandt Snedeker	Steve Stricker
2006	Tiger Woods	Tiger Woods	Trevor Immelman	Steve Stricker
2005	Tiger Woods	Tiger Woods	Sean O'Hair	Jay Haas
2004	Vijay Singh	Vijay Singh	Todd Hamilton	John Daly
2003	Tiger Woods	Tiger Woods	Ben Curtis	Peter Jacobsen
2002	Tiger Woods	Tiger Woods	Jonathan Byrd	Gene Sauers
2001	Tiger Woods	Tiger Woods	Charles Howell III	Joe Durant
2000	Tiger Woods	Tiger Woods	Michael Clark II	Paul Azinger
1999	Tiger Woods	Tiger Woods	Carlos Franco	Steve Pate
1998	Mark O'Meara	Mark O'Meara	Steve Flesch	Scott Verplank
1997	Tiger Woods	Tiger Woods	Stewart Cink	Bill Glasson
1996	Tom Lehman	Tom Lehman	Tiger Woods	Steve Jones
1995	Greg Norman	Greg Norman	Woody Austin	Bob Tway
1994	Nick Price	Nick Price	Ernie Els	Hal Sutton
1993	Nick Price	Nick Price	Vijay Singh	Howard Twitty
1992	Fred Couples	Fred Couples	Mark Carnevale	John Cook
1991	Corey Pavin	Fred Couples	John Daly	Bruce Fleisher , D. A. Weibring
1990	Nick Faldo	Wayne Levi	Robert Gamez	-

[Hacker James]

Good, Thanks for the response. I never really paid that much attention in the past. I kind of like the idea of being voted on by your peers.

[turtleback]

The PGA of America Player of the Year, which predates the Tour POY by quite a bit has the following criteria:

The PGA Player of the Year Award is given to the top PGA Tour player based on his tournament wins, official money standing and scoring average. The point system for selecting the PGA Player of the Year was amended in 1982 and is as follows: 30 points for winning the PGA Championship, U.S. Open, British Open or Masters; 20 points for winning The Players Championship; and 10 points for winning all other designated PGA Tour events. In addition, there is a 50-point bonus for winning two majors, 75-point bonus for winning three, 100-point bonus for winning four. For top 10 finishes on the PGA Tour’s official money and scoring average lists for the year, the point value is: first, 20 points, then 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2. Any incomplete rounds in the scoring average list will result in a .10 penalty per incomplete round.

Under this system, assuming Tiger stays the leading money winner and stroke average leader, he would have 100 points (20 for the

Players, 40 for his other 4 wins, 20 for money, 20 for stroke average).

The leading other candidate would be Phil, who currently has 76 points (30 for the British Open, 20 for his other 2 wins, 18 for money list position, and 8 for scoring average).

I don't believe anyone else is really close.

Except for the first 2 years of the voting POYs life, the same player has won both POYs iin every subsequent year, ie., for the last 21 years.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by turtleback

The PGA of America Player of the Year, which predates the Tour POY by quite a bit has the following criteria:

The PGA Player of the Year Award is given to the top PGA Tour player based on his tournament wins, official money standing and scoring average. The point system for selecting the PGA Player of the Year was amended in 1982 and is as follows: 30 points for winning the PGA Championship, U.S. Open, British Open or Masters; 20 points for winning The Players Championship; and 10 points for winning all other designated PGA Tour events. In addition, there is a 50-point bonus for winning two majors, 75-point bonus for winning three, 100-point bonus for winning four. For top 10 finishes on the PGA Tour’s official money and scoring average lists for the year, the point value is: first, 20 points, then 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2. Any incomplete rounds in the scoring average list will result in a .10 penalty per incomplete round.

Under this system, assuming Tiger stays the leading money winner and stroke average leader, he would have 100 points (20 for the

Players, 40 for his other 4 wins, 20 for money, 20 for stroke average).

The leading other candidate would be Phil, who currently has 76 points (30 for the British Open, 20 for his other 2 wins, 18 for money list position, and 8 for scoring average).

I don't believe anyone else is really close.

Except for the first 2 years of the voting POYs life, the same player has won both POYs iin every subsequent year, ie., for the last 21 years.

Thanks for this...I am not sure about which scoring average they use, or the penalty system, but it looks like Scott would have about 70 points.  I think Phil has only won 1 other PGA tournament win besides the Open as the Scottish Open is Euro only, not PGA.  That would put him at 66, just behind Scott.  That would be my current top 3 in that order- Tiger, Adam & Phil.

The PGA of America point system seems pretty reasonable, but I think the players might give a bit of extra weight for WGC and Fed Ex Cup wins over other 10 point wins were the field might not be as strong.  I also think the players will give some credit for winning the Fed Ex Cup and the $10 of bonus money that comes with it.  Contending in majors might get additional credit with the players and Phil and Adam both had back 9 Sunday chances at more than one major.  So if Phil or Adam Scott wins the Cup (likely with another win), then I think there could be the first split in 20+ years if Tiger stayed ahead in the points but the Fed Ex winner got the peer vote.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Thanks for this...I am not sure about which scoring average they use, or the penalty system, but it looks like Scott would have about 70 points.  I think Phil has only won 1 other PGA tournament win besides the Open as the Scottish Open is Euro only, not PGA.  That would put him at 66, just behind Scott.  That would be my current top 3 in that order- Tiger, Adam & Phil.

The PGA of America point system seems pretty reasonable, but I think the players might give a bit of extra weight for WGC and Fed Ex Cup wins over other 10 point wins were the field might not be as strong.  I also think the players will give some credit for winning the Fed Ex Cup and the $10 of bonus money that comes with it.  Contending in majors might get additional credit with the players and Phil and Adam both had back 9 Sunday chances at more than one major.  So if Phil or Adam Scott wins the Cup (likely with another win), then I think there could be the first split in 20+ years if Tiger stayed ahead in the points but the Fed Ex winner got the peer vote.

You're right, I over-counted Phil by 10 points.  The Scottish Open doesn't count for this.

As for Scott, 30 for the Masters and 10 for the Barclays.  He has 12 for the money list.  And he has 18 for the scoring average, so you're right, his 70 is a little ahead of Phil's corrected 66.

I am fairly sure they use the adjusted stroke average, which works to Scott's advantage since he is 2nd in adjusted but only T16 in raw.

As to the voting one, it has always been my surmise that the split in the first 2 years of voting kind of embarrassed the players and would be unlikely to happen again again.  I think if the points are very close it could happen but if Tiger maintains any significant lead they will, in the end, vote for him.  But I certainly could be wrong about that.  And if Scot wins another playoff event he could pass Tiger in scoring average (possible but maybe not too likely unless Tiger's back is bad but he plays and shoots high scores).  And he would certainly climb up the money list.  So if he gets into the high 80s and Tiger falls to the high 90s that might be close enough for players to vote for Scott.  It will be interesting to watch.

Hmmm, how about lifetime PGA of America Player of the Year points as a GOAT metric?

PS:  Oh, and about the penalty system.  I don't think any of Tiger, Scott, or Phil has withdrawn mid-round in any event so the penalty clause shouldn't come into play.  It would effect, for example, Rory McIllroy because of his mid-round withdrawal for his tooth problem.  Needless to say that will be of no import because he isn't in the running.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by turtleback

So if he gets into the high 80s and Tiger falls to the high 90s that might be close enough for players to vote for Scott.  It will be interesting to watch.

Yes, if they end up within 10, I think Scott will get it unless Tiger takes the FEC title.

I think a more accurate points list would up the WGC and playoff events to 12-15, and the Tour Championship to 15-20.  With the advent of the FEC, you could split the $ points between the two (aka, 10 for 1st on each list counting down by 1).  I also think they could do a separate point award for cumulative score in the majors- maybe 10, 9, etc

[bobsuruncle]

Because the voting by players is subjective vs a rigid points system used by the PGA body, a split decision is a real possibility this year. Having said that, it would be interesting to hear the TV talking heads and internet chats debate the POY if Tiger and Scott had the others result i.e. TW with 2 wins, one of which is a major, and Scott with 5 wins but no major. I'm willing to bet they would talk up Scotty's 5 wins with words like "dominant", "consistent", "how few players in the history of the game have had a 5 win season", etc. However, since it's the other way around, they need to talk down the 5 wins with their "1 major = 5 wins" rhetoric. This is a funny game!

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by bobsuruncle

Because the voting by players is subjective vs a rigid points system used by the PGA body, a split decision is a real possibility this year.

It is certainly a possibility, but the fact that it hasn't happened since the first couple of years of the dual POYs, and not for more than 20 years, makes it unlikely, IMO.  Consider 2003.  Mike Weir won the Masters and 2 other events.  Tiger won 5 times.  Despite Weir being very popular, Tiger got both of the POYs.  I think that winning the most money and having the best scoring average resonates with players.  And consider, it is not that unusual for a guy to win a major and a couple of other events.  But other than Tiger only 2 guys have won 5 tims in a season in the last 30 years - Vijay and Nick Price.  It is a pretty rare achievement - except for Tiger who has now done it 10 times.

Does it become less notable because the same guy achieves it more often than not?  Players know how hard it is to win one time.  They know how incredibly hard it is to win 2 times.  I think they understand the magnitude of the achievement of winning 5 times.  There is no doubt in my mind that if Harrington had not won 2 majors in 2008 Tiger would have won the POY even though he missed more than half the year, because even in that abbreviated season he had 4 wins.  But 2 majors overcomes just about everything, as it should.  But not one major because SOMEONE has to win each one, while there is never any assurance that someone will win 2.

[Spitfisher]

I's vote Phil for any number of reasons

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Spitfisher

I's vote Phil for any number of reasons

And you listed every valid one.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by turtleback

And you listed every valid one.

I wouldn't vote for Phil either at this point, but if he win's the Fed Ex Cup, then I would as he would have 2 titles more important than anything Tiger has won this year.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I wouldn't vote for Phil either at this point, but if he win's the Fed Ex Cup, then I would as he would have 2 titles more important than anything Tiger has won this year.

What makes the FedExCup more important than a WGC? Especially if Phil wins it by winning the Tour Championship, which is comprised of only 30 players (and not the 30 best, just the 30 who play best during the "playoffs" with a little bit of weight given to the regular season)?

Is it literally just the money?

[Golfingdad]

It will be Tiger Woods.  He will (hopefully) not win any more tournaments, yet finish high enough (and get the chips to fall correctly at East Lake) such that he still wins the Cup.  That means he'd finish the season with:

5 wins, 0 majors (well, the Players counts as 1/2, right?), #1 World Ranking, Fedex Cup, Player of the Year.

Hmmm ... that sounds familiar ... I swear I heard something similar a long time ago.

Oh yeah: http://thesandtrap.com/t/62054/bet-on-2013-tiger-vs-rory/0_30#post_768076 (Just 2 weeks short of a year ago!!)

[boogielicious]

It's like the Rockettes of Dancing Bananas!

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by iacas

What makes the FedExCup more important than a WGC? Especially if Phil wins it by winning the Tour Championship, which is comprised of only 30 players (and not the 30 best, just the 30 who play best during the "playoffs" with a little bit of weight given to the regular season)?

Is it literally just the money?

Money is a key element- after all these guys are professional golfers, so they are not just playing for pride.  Not coincidentally, the best players tend to show up at the tournaments that offer the most money.,  Yes, the PGA and Players attracts great fields, but so do the Fed Ex Cup Playoffs.  If the playoffs did not offer more $, then many of the top guys like Tiger and Phil would be shutting it down after the PGA and some of the Euro born players like Rory might not play a full schedule here.

Winning the Fed Ex Cup is also about playing consistently well enough to make the finals and then doing well enough at East Lake- to me it is more impressive than a single WGC event for that reason- yes only 30 players at East Lake- but you have to play well enough all year to make it there.

Here is how I would rank Wins

Majors

Fed Ex Cup Title

Players & Tour Championship

WGC events

other tournaments with strong fields

other regular PGA events

opposite field events

[Chilli Dipper]

Tiger Woods is player of the year if the season ended today. Of course, there are three events yet to be played. Adam Scott or Phil Mickelson have arguments if they win the FedEx Cup; each are still at least one win away from achieving that. Kuchar, Rose, or Snedeker would have to run the table to even enter the discussion. At least the other major trophies are more cut and dried. Jordan Spieth is the obvious choice for Rookie of the Year. The Comeback Player of the Year will be given out (read: the tour wouldn't have to give it to Tiger Woods based on their own criteria), and it will be awarded to Boo Weekley.