Backswing or Impact - Delusional Thoughts on Why its a No-Brainer

[iacas]

There are many impact conditions established at address, such as...

Grip pressure point(s) which sense shaft lean and clubface direction.

Arm extension.

Tilted shoulders.

Spine angle.

Forward shaft lean.

Left hip set slightly forward and down which automatically sets the right hip slightly back and up. (We all know what that promotes in the downswing)

Shoulder lag promoting an in to out downswing.

Core muscle tension or awareness or activation.

I'm not going to go through all of those, but I disagree. Furthermore, I'll re-iterate that PGA Tour players have all kinds of setups, and they could all set up with "poor" variations of all of those and still hit the ball better than you (or I) on your/my best days.

I will point out that tilted shoulders (if you mean trail shoulder below lead shoulder) would conflict with "left hip slightly down and the right hip up". That'd be an awkward thing. Here are some more contradictions, and I'll add that the address shaft angle (forward shaft lean is rarely) the same as at impact.

And, if you are fully committed to setting such impact conditions up at address and adhere 100% to this single commitment, then it stands to reason that such a player has already established good impact conditions at address.

This doesn't make sense to me. Impact is nothing like address. I don't understand what you mean by "establish good impact conditions at address."

I agree with the person above - EVERY good instructor "teaches impact." I fix the setup positions of a LOT of my students - likely a big majority - but I also fix backswings, because they too change impact, and arguable MORE SO than setup.

I rarely see a good setup. In fact, the basic fundamentals are often lacking which makes a good setup almost impossible to achieve. Most golfers who adopt a good setup position know what they are doing and I would suggest they tend more often to have good backswings and more solid impact positions.

Please define the basic fundamentals of a good setup. These fundamentals should be adhered to, by definition, by about 99% or more of PGA Tour players. I ask you this not because I think you can do it (you'd have to be so generic it's almost worthless), but to make my point: setup matters, but not that much (so long as you're set up within a pretty broad range you're probably fine, and other things matter a LOT more).

I agree that if you cast the club in the transition period, you're gonna find it hard to achieve good impact conditions. However as I argued above, by establishing impact conditions at address, surely a player's focus for imparting these impact positions has also been established at address.

That still doesn't make sense. I can put a player with a crappy swing in the PERFECT address position and his swing is still gonna suck. It won't improve that much.

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I'd also like to point out that I'm not trying to say anything bad about your instructor, or any improvements you've had, etc. I simply disagree with the title of this thread (because backswing can AFFECT impact, and often does more so than setup, as well), and because as I've said ALL good instructors effectively "teach impact."

[Everthing Golf]

I will point out that tilted shoulders (if you mean trail shoulder below lead shoulder) would conflict with "left hip slightly down and the right hip up". That'd be an awkward thing. Here are some more contradictions, and I'll add that the address shaft angle (forward shaft lean is rarely) the same as at impact.

You're totally right, I tried to edit the hip thing but couldn't. I was kinda hoping you would realise that it was just a matter of me getting my P's and Q's a bit mixed up.

As for shaft angle lean, a player who applies a forward press prior to takeaway starts the backswing from a position quite similar to impact.

This doesn't make sense to me. Impact is nothing like address. I don't understand what you mean by "establish good impact conditions at address."

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Please define the basic fundamentals of a good setup. These fundamentals should be adhered to, by definition, by about 99% or more of PGA Tour players. I ask you this not because I think you can do it (you'd have to be so generic it's almost worthless), but to make my point: setup matters, but not that much (so long as you're set up within a pretty broad range you're probably fine, and other things matter a LOT more).

setup is the foundation needed to carry out the intricacies of the golf swing. I know its not

everything but I am not convinced that it does matter that much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

That still doesn't make sense. I can put a player with a crappy swing in the PERFECT address position and his swing is still gonna suck. It won't improve that much.

The fact that you are putting a golfer into a PERFECT address position indicates to me that he hasn't
learned the simple fundamentals. Establishing impact conditions at address would only be possible when
he has enough talent to address the ball PERFECTLY in the first place.

[iacas]

As for shaft angle lean, a player who applies a forward press prior to takeaway starts the backswing from a position quite similar to impact.

Unless your definition of "quite similar" is very, VERY broad, I disagree. There are plenty of differences:

In my original reply I listed at least eight examples and you picked up on my misprint about right hip/left hip.

No, I said I disagreed with just about all of them, but didn't want to take the time to go through them one by one.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Again I feel I argued my point already on this one. A good

setup is the foundation needed to carry out the intricacies of the golf swing. I know its not

everything but I am not convinced that it does matter that much.

I'm not convinced it matters that much either. And as I'm sure you know I don't think you've argued your point. You've just listed some things and said "see?"

The fact that you are putting a golfer into a PERFECT address position indicates to me that he hasn't learned the simple fundamentals. Establishing impact conditions at address would only be possible when he has enough talent to address the ball PERFECTLY in the first place.

Do you read what you type? I'm a pretty intelligent guy and I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Why would putting a golfer into the perfect - YOUR version of "perfect" (I disagree that there is one "perfect" address position, after all) - indicate that he hasn't learned the fundamentals?

Furthermore, I'll again state that you cannot "establish impact conditions" at address. That phrase simply doesn't make sense. It's only a teeny bit more relevant than saying a good player "establishes impact conditions" when he gets out of his car in the parking lot. Or puts on his pants.

Address/setup matter, but very, very little relative to what you actually do during the golf swing.

I can address the golf ball by standing there with the club on my shoulder and strike it better than most 12 handicappers. The swing itself is really important.

[Everthing Golf]

I'm not convinced it matters that much either.  And as I'm sure you know I don't think you've argued your point. You've just listed some things and said "see?"

I thought this was what is usually referred to as a 'discussion'. Someone opens up the conservation and others throw in their opinions which can then be expanded on.

I find your replies to be every bit as vague as mine and skipping a point by saying you disagree or don't have time to go through all of the points is really just a kop out.

I do however acknowledge that you have continued the discussion and elaborated on certain points.

Do you read what you type? I'm a pretty intelligent guy and I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Why would putting a golfer into the perfect - YOUR version of "perfect" (I disagree that there is one "perfect" address position, after all) - indicate that he hasn't learned the fundamentals?

Furthermore, I'll again state that you cannot "establish impact conditions" at address. That phrase simply doesn't make sense. It's only a teeny bit more relevant than saying a good player "establishes impact conditions" when he gets out of his car in the parking lot. Or puts on his pants.

Address/setup matter, but very, very little relative to what you actually do during the golf swing.

You are the one who put the word perfect into describing the address position, I was just metaphrasing. Just because the fundamentals have been taught this doesn't mean they have been grasped.

I see widespread evidence of this every time I go to the range or course. You must look only at good players and watch the others with rose tinted spectacles.

Establishing impact conditions getting out of the car or putting your pants on. Now that's funny. ( If we were all about six years old that is)

The swing itself may be really important but if you screw up impact then it doesn't matter a jot.

Address/setup matter, but very, very little relative to what you actually do during the golf swing.

I can address the golf ball by standing there with the club on my shoulder and strike it better than most 12 handicappers. The swing itself is really important.

I believe every aspect of the swing has to be worked on/ingrained and have suggested a ratio in the OP.

The swing is also a culmination of moves that include impact, and sound foundations and centered focus will lead to a trusting repeatable swing. I personally put my trust in being able to return to impact similarly to my address position.

Finally, add some hip turn and degrees of forward press to the address position in all of the pictures you have displayed and they look even 'more similar'.

[saevel25]

I find your replies to be every bit as vague as mine and skipping a point by saying you disagree or don't have time to go through all of the points is really just a kop out.

The swing itself may be really important but if you screw up impact then it doesn't matter a jot.

I believe every aspect of the swing has to be worked on/ingrained and have suggested a ratio in the OP.

The swing is also a culmination of moves that include impact, and sound foundations and centered focus will lead to a trusting repeatable swing. I personally put my trust in being able to return to impact similarly to my address position.

Finally, add some hip turn and degrees of forward press to the address position in all of the pictures you have displayed and they look even 'more similar'.

His replies are very understandable and concise. Don't know what your talking about.

Ummm... impact is part of the swing, and if you don't screw up the swing your not going to screw up impact.

What you feel happening and what you do don't always line up. I highly doubt your able to mimic your address and impact. If you wanted to show us how its done, why not just post a video of your swing, but then you'd probably find out that your not even close to doing what your suggesting.

Oh and If you want to mimic the address position go ahead, you'll have to open the hips about 40 degrees, open the torso about 25 degrees, shift your weight so its 90%+ on your front leg, have a forward shaft lean, raise the hands up a bit, make sure your head stays centered between your feet.  It probably feels horrible awkward and unstable. But luckily it only lasts for an instant in an actual golf swing.

[iacas]

I thought this was what is usually referred to as a 'discussion'. Someone opens up the conservation and others throw in their opinions which can then be expanded on.

That's what's happening, yes. I disagree with you on how important address is relative to the actual swing, and am still unclear on whether you believe that impact and address are "quite similar" or not.

You are the one who put the word perfect into describing the address position, I was just metaphrasing. Just because the fundamentals have been taught this doesn't mean they have been grasped. I see widespread evidence of this every time I go to the range or course. You must look only at good players and watch the others with rose tinted spectacles.

I watch all sorts of players, seeing as how, you know, I teach all sorts of players. Let's stick to discussing the actual topic, not weird assumptions about who I've seen or not seen.

Establishing impact conditions getting out of the car or putting your pants on. Now that's funny. ( If we were all about six years old that is)

Then you missed the point. Those actions are only a little less relevant to impact than setup.

And I realize that if you take this to an odd extreme, you might assume I'm saying that setup doesn't matter at all. That is not true, and not what I believe. Setup is important, but it pales in comparison to the importance of the actual swing you make. Furthermore, there is no "one setup" that works for everyone (just as there is no one swing that works for everyone), nor is there even one impact condition that works for everyone.

The farther before impact an action occurs the less it matters to impact. Setup is, in the golf swing, about as far "before impact" as it gets.

I've bolded those parts because they're the meat of the point I'm trying to make, along with trying to figure out whether you think impact and setup are quite alike (because they are not).

The swing itself may be really important but if you screw up impact then it doesn't matter a jot.

Of course impact matters a lot! It's all that matters - the golf ball doesn't know how the golf club got to where it is at impact - it just knows the speed, centeredness of contact, AoA, loft, and a few other details.

Which do you think affects impact more - the swing itself or how you set up to the golf ball? Because I know where I'm placing my money.

I believe every aspect of the swing has to be worked on/ingrained and have suggested a ratio in the OP.

For this to be a true discussion, I'm going to need you to read what people are writing.

This has been said more than a few times: EVERY good teacher teaches "impact." Sometimes, however, changing someone's backswing is how they improve impact.

I personally put my trust in being able to return to impact similarly to my address position.

Finally, add some hip turn and degrees of forward press to the address position in all of the pictures you have displayed and they look even 'more similar'.

Please show us a picture of your setup position so that we may understand what you think it should look like, then answer this question based on the proper "if":

If your picture resembles the images on the left side of the PGA Tour player photos, why do you believe that to be "similar" to the impact conditions you desire?

If your picture resembles the images on the right side of the PGA Tour player photos, why do you believe that setting up in an impact condition is desirable given that roughly zero PGA Tour players do this? Heck many of them have their trail foot off the ground slightly.

What you feel happening and what you do don't always line up. I highly doubt your able to mimic your address and impact. If you wanted to show us how its done, why not just post a video of your swing, but then you'd probably find out that your not even close to doing what your suggesting.

Oh and If you want to mimic the address position go ahead, you'll have to open the hips about 40 degrees, open the torso about 25 degrees, shift your weight so its 90%+ on your front leg, have a forward shaft lean, raise the hands up a bit, make sure your head stays centered between your feet.  It probably feels horrible awkward and unstable. But luckily it only lasts for an instant in an actual golf swing.

I second these two paragraphs as well, and if you're not willing to show us a video, please, show us a picture of your setup position.

[mvmac]

And, if you are fully committed to setting such impact conditions up at address and adhere 100% to this single commitment, then it stands to reason that such a player has already established good impact conditions at address.

Impact is very different than address, as Erik and saevel pointed out.

This is how great players would address the ball if they wanted it to be similar to good impact conditions.

There are many impact conditions established at address, such as...

Grip pressure point(s) which sense shaft lean and clubface direction.

Arm extension.

Tilted shoulders.

Spine angle.

Forward shaft lean.

Left hip set slightly forward and down which automatically sets the right hip slightly back and up. (We all know what that promotes in the downswing)

Shoulder lag promoting an in to out downswing.

Core muscle tension or awareness or activation.

So all the stuff you list above is different at impact.

There are many impact conditions established at address, such as...

Grip pressure point(s) which sense shaft lean and clubface direction.

Arm extension.

Tilted shoulders.

Spine angle.

Forward shaft lean.

Left hip set slightly forward and down which automatically sets the right hip slightly back and up. (We all know what that promotes in the downswing)

Shoulder lag promoting an in to out downswing.

Core muscle tension or awareness or activation.

And, if you are fully committed to setting such impact conditions up at address and adhere 100% to this single commitment, then it stands to reason that such a player has already established good impact conditions at address.

Do you feel like you are committed to all these thing when you address the ball?  Do you do a good job of this?

[k-troop]

Obviously the negative doesn't prove OP's point, but you can make contact much more difficult with a jacked up setup. How many times have you seen a guy with such a strong grip that his hands are essentially under the club? Only Tom Lehman can hit it from there. Which shows that even terrible setup "fundamentals" can't guarantee failure, but it has to make success far less likely. Ill also postulate that when I get off on the course, it usually starts with alignment creep.

[iacas]

K-troop, I don't think anyone here disagrees with most of that. Setup us important. But there are many many things that are far more important. And the title question makes no sense. It's not an "or" concept.

[saevel25]

Obviously the negative doesn't prove OP's point, but you can make contact much more difficult with a jacked up setup. How many times have you seen a guy with such a strong grip that his hands are essentially under the club? Only Tom Lehman can hit it from there. Which shows that even terrible setup "fundamentals" can't guarantee failure, but it has to make success far less likely.

Ill also postulate that when I get off on the course, it usually starts with alignment creep.

can we get off that set up is a fundamental. Its not, a fundamental is something that everyone does, a requirement. Set up, grip, posture, are not fundamentals. They might lead to a better golf swing, or make movements easier, they are not fundamentals.

As Erik and his colleagues have shown, there are 5 fundamentals (keys) to the golf swing. If you find a 6th, let them know.

Look at Moe Norman, stand away from the ball, straight arms, weird grip. Compare him to Jim Furyk, stands close to the ball, arms hang inside the shoulders, double over lapping grip (tried that once, didn't work).

[k-troop]

Grip and stance are fundamental in that 100% of golfers grip the club, and 100% of golfers stand next to the ball before they hit it. And there is no single perfect way to do either of those, but there are "better" ways. Start your swing with one of the less good ways and you're significantly decreasing your chances for success. In that I'd argue that both grip and address are fundamentals and should be learned properly.

[saevel25]

Grip and stance are fundamental in that 100% of golfers grip the club, and 100% of golfers stand next to the ball before they hit it. And there is no single perfect way to do either of those, but there are "better" ways. Start your swing with one of the less good ways and you're significantly decreasing your chances for success.

In that I'd argue that both grip and address are fundamentals and should be learned properly.

But what type of grip, what type of stance?  There was a video around of an injured soldier who's able to crush the ball, he lays his amputated leg on a bucket and swings with his upper body.

Is there better ways? Some golfers take a wide stance, open stance, closed stance, flared feat, square feat, a lot of knee bent, hardly no knee bent? They are not fundamental because there is no one clear concise way to do it. To say one way is better than another is totally independent on the golfer, hence not a fundamental to golf. In saying that, then what is the proper way of learning it? Do you measure back angle, knee bend, foot flare, body weight distribution, how much do the arms hang from the shoulder. What makes it perfect, what leads to success, what's proper?

You can't sit there and give and answer because there is no right answer, hence not a fundamental.

[iacas]

Discussion of "fundamentals" and things is best reserved for threads like this one: . It's off topic for this thread.

[Everthing Golf]

Discussion of "fundamentals" and things is best reserved for threads like this one: ​ . It's off topic for this thread.

I heartily agree, if you all look back to the OP the words 'setup', 'address' and 'fundamentals' are not even mentioned but somehow this discussion has moved in that direction.

The main point being made is that during the swing a golfer should commit to a single intention and IMO that focus should be directed towards an impact condition.

Whether address and impact are related or 'quite similar' is irrelevant, you all have your own opinions on this. Obviously as one is a stationary motion and the other not then there are going to be apparent differences.

But to say that address has no similarities to impact especially with swing triggers like right knee kick or forward hand press is simply absurd.

I also can't believe that I am the only golfer on this site that can feel/activate impact pressure points and conditions during address.

[Everthing Golf]

Impact is very different than address, as Erik and saevel pointed out.

This is how great players would address the ball if they wanted it to be similar to good impact conditions.

Correct me if I am wrong but these pictures are actually stills of good players at impact.

So, that's how they would address the ball if they wanted it to be identical to their impact conditions.

And that's just plain silly because addressing the ball identically to impact is, well, dumb.

So all the stuff you list above is different at impact.

All the stuff I listed is evident at impact.

Do you feel like you are committed to all these thing when you address the ball?  Do you do a good job of this?

I have established all of these things and more during my setup but I commit to only one...

At the moment that's my awareness of forward lean.

[Everthing Golf]

And the title question makes no sense. It's not an "or" concept.

The title question is explained in the first paragraph of the OP. Should golfers work more on back swing or impact.

From my humble experience its a no brainer.

[mvmac]

Correct me if I am wrong but these pictures are actually stills of good players at impact.

So, that's how they would address the ball if they wanted it to be identical to their impact conditions.

And that's just plain silly because addressing the ball identically to impact is, well, dumb.

Yeah it is but you're are the one talking about establishing impact conditions at address.  That's how different address is from impact.

I have established all of these things and more during my setup but I commit to only one...

At the moment that's my awareness of forward lean.

So if good address = good impact, why aren't you a low single digit handicap?

The title question is explained in the first paragraph of the OP. Should golfers work more on back swing or impact.

From my humble experience its a no brainer.

If the backswing is causing issues on the downswing then working on the backswing is working on improving impact

[saevel25]

The title question is explained in the first paragraph of the OP. Should golfers work more on back swing or impact.

From my humble experience its a no brainer.

Depends on what causes the issue, they are both intertwined to a certain degree. If you take the club way to the inside, which is not a set up related issue, but its a backswing issue that requires a compensation to get the correct impact conditions you want.