Pace Problem

[Cartboy]

Played behind a twosome a couple days ago that was slow as hell.  Normally I don't get too bent out of shape over moving slowly because I usually play by myself and everything seems slow like that, or the course is full of foursomes and nobody is going anywhere anytime soon anyway.  But these people... they weren't good, had nobody in front of them, and played like they had the rest of their lives to finish the round.  It was really irritating and I see what people mean by slow play killing the game.

On what hole did you ask to play through?

Our regular member group (3 foursomes) was behind a very-slow, two-couple, everyone-play-one-shot-and-then-everyone-go-to-the-next-shot foursome.  We coulda played in 3 1/2 hours by ourselves, but that group had another similar group in front of them.  It was close to five hours, maybe 4:45.

We were all keeping track of Pace because all of us were waiting on every shot the entire round.  But, then, when we played as a 6-some on the last hole, and I got a birdie, I totally forgot how slow the round had been.

And everyone had a great time.

[Cartboy]

It's never too late to look at new ways to handle old problems.

Although this year Pace has been much less of a problem, we have recently had a few blowups  with problem groups, one so serious that the GM had to send a message to another local club's pro that their group would no longer be allowed at our course (which has likely been reversed because of the in-person apology from the offending party the next day).

It's pretty common around here that if a course is closed for aerification or a tournament, they go to a another course, and get a great rate at a busy time of day.  It's not unusual for those groups to be little cocky, and badmouth the course while they're there, cuz it's just not as good as their own course, of course.

No Marshal/Ranger has been immune from the abuse, even the Club Pro and GM.  Quite a few times one of them has said to me, "I better not be the one back out there, so will you go . . . "

The inherent problem is that the Ranger/Marshal is someone everyone wants to see on their round, because they know that person is out there to keep things moving, but no one wants to be the one the Ranger/Marshal has to talk to about their pace, cart habits, etc.

So, this past week when I saw cart after cart driving in the woods at the same places they have always driven in the woods, so that I had to go talk to them, I suggested to the Pro that we do that via the messaging on our new GPS units.  Then I suggested we do Pace problem notifications the same way.  The Ranger/Marshal radios in the offending carts, the clubhouse can look at them on the dashboard, and send them a message.

So, folks can see our Ranger/Marshal out there, but the corrections will come from the little screens on their carts.  No person-to-person confrontations.

- - - - - -

Probably already mentioned, but . . . when I golfed with a member group yesterday, on every hole the threesome in front of us was in the weeds or in the woods looking for their shots.  They were playing 6700 yards.  Our group, all familiar with the course, and with long-enough hitters to be playing 6700 yards, was playing 5800.

I commented that those guys are going to leave our course frustrated, hating it, badmouthing it, but if they would have played one of the three shorter tees available, that would not likely be the case.

[Cartboy]

Just to update this, we still, officially, do not have a policy to correct slow play.  When it happens, our marshal is out there mostly for appearances. 

Being that person is frustrating.

[tdiii]

On 11/3/2013, 10:42:26, wils5150 said:

as good as that sounds the reality is the course would have the reputation of a douche bag and people would not come play. Public courses make money by putting players on the course. most run tee times close together and leave little or no margin for a slow group.

I would give that course my business!  A course that gets rid of slow players -- I'd love it!

[tdiii]

Since your course is #1 rated in the state, it presumably is in high demand.  What if you mandated caddies before noon and only allowed carts for those with disabilities?  Caddies would keep the pace moving because they help find balls, and could be trained to keep people moving along. 

[Cartboy]

8 minutes ago, tdiii said:

Since your course is #1 rated in the state, it presumably is in high demand.  What if you mandated caddies before noon and only allowed carts for those with disabilities?  Caddies would keep the pace moving because they help find balls, and could be trained to keep people moving along. 

Being in demand is relative to the other courses in the immediate area.  Two of the others are in the Top 5 in the state and there are 3 more that get a lot of play.

It's nice, but it's not Sawgrass, cart-path only every day, with caddies, for $400 plus a surcharge for the "level of service" you desire.

This year there was lip service given to pace of play, but, as I've said, it was mostly for appearances, and to give friendly suggestions.  Several times I've heard the pro bitch that the owners won't let us do anything about slow play.  "Bitch" is mild.

We still had days blow up and get over 5 hours.  Mostly the problem is that we are a very tough course in a tourist area, and some don't find out they should not be playing it until they are.  That reputation has actually attracted more who should not playing it.

[possumkiwi]

My course prints times for the hole on each card.  For example if you teed off at 1pm, you're expected to be on the tee at no. 2 by 1:09, 3rd by 1:17 etc.

Seems to work, but like has been pointed out in other threads, everyone has their part to play.  Greens staff shouldn't cut pins directly behind deep bunkers and have 6" rough heading into a weekend.  Players should be aware of where they're supposed to be on the course.  Marshals should use diplomatic but non-negotiable language.  "Gentlemen, I really need you to pick up the pace - you're about ten minutes behind where you should be".  In my experience, not many people try to play slowly.

[natureboy]

One thing I've noticed visiting new courses is that marking to the next tee is often abysmal - particularly for walkers who may not exit tot he cart path leaving the green. If you have a lot of tourists / new visitors decent signage is key and a course map is not an equal substitute for good waymarking.

Has anyone tried a pace of play security deposit? Like a $10 fee (or 5% of the total fee) charged at the shop to be refunded if you don't get a 'bad time' or warning on the course? Extra work in the pro shop, but maybe a real internal incentive for slower golfers to keep on pace.

 

Edited November 30, 2015 by natureboy

[Dave325]

I believe that this post started as a comment to speed up play when slow golfers play the tips. I remember being at a course years ago, where the course closed the tips during public play (only used the tips for tournaments, since there was a large difference between tee boxes). In other courses, I have seen where the tips are moved to the forward tee boxes with only a few yards difference between tees.

[Marty2019]

 

I have a friend in Switzerland and he tells me that at his local golf club they take you to the driving range and give you a test before they let you play.   They want to see if you're good enough.   Not good enough, can't play. 

My suggestion would be for the starter to give every group a very stern lecture about pace of play before they tee off.   He might even set some rules about how many strokes they can take on each hole before they must pick up their ball and go to the next hole.  Tell them double-par is a pickup, no exceptions.   Tell them 2 minutes is the limit for hunting their ball in the woods. 

Everyone complains about pace of play, but very few courses do much about it in my experience.  They're too desperate to get new customers and afraid to offend anyone. 

 

 

[dkolo]

42 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

 

I have a friend in Switzerland and he tells me that at his local golf club they take you to the driving range and give you a test before they let you play.   They want to see if you're good enough.   Not good enough, can't play. 

My suggestion would be for the starter to give every group a very stern lecture about pace of play before they tee off.   He might even set some rules about how many strokes they can take on each hole before they must pick up their ball and go to the next hole.  Tell them double-par is a pickup, no exceptions.   Tell them 2 minutes is the limit for hunting their ball in the woods. 

Everyone complains about pace of play, but very few courses do much about it in my experience.  They're too desperate to get new customers and afraid to offend anyone. 

 

 

Terrible golfers can be fast, as much as great golfers can take forever. Education of new golfers is great but in my experience lousy golfers generally are self aware of being bad and either pick up or don't dawdle too much if behind. Obviously there's exceptions but it cuts both ways. 

[Cartboy]

When I marshal I like to be brief without being punitive or scolding.

"How ya doin'?. . . . You got an open hole in front of you," or  "You're on a 4:45 pace."

It's funny how often that's answered with, "No one pushing us."

Then I say, "Yeah, I'm talking to them next."

In the final analysis, after ten years of doing this, some care about their pace and understand how it affects others, and some don't.  If they don't, and it is the owners' wishes not to upset anyone, there's nothing you can do.  The slow group is going to screw up everyone else's time on the course.

I also know that you can't go out after the damage is done and undo it.  If you don't see everyone at least twice on the front nine, you don't really care about pace, or, for that matter, anything about your golfers once they're on the course.

I also know that if you can't do math, don't marshal.  Four holes an hour, or whatever your standard is, should be automatic, something the marshal doesn't have to get out his calculator to figure. "Things look OK . . . no gaps," is not an accurate report. 

We still had some 6 hour rounds this past year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2015 by Cartboy

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

When I marshal I like to be brief without being punitive or scolding.

"How ya doin'?. . . . You got an open hole in front of you," or  "You're on a 4:45 pace."

It's funny how often that's answered with, "No one pushing us."

Then I say, "Yeah, I'm talking to them next."

In the final analysis, after ten years of doing this, some care about their pace and understand how it affects others, and some don't.  If they don't, and it is the owners' wishes not to upset anyone, there's nothing you can do.  The slow group is going to screw up everyone else's time on the course.

I also know that you can't go out after the damage is done and undo it.  If you don't see everyone at least twice on the front nine, you don't really care about pace, or, for that matter, anything about your golfers once they're on the course.

I also know that if you can't do math, don't marshal.  Four holes an hour, or whatever your standard is, should be automatic, something the marshal doesn't have to get out his calculator to figure. "Things look OK . . . no gaps," is not an accurate report. 

We still had some 6 hour rounds this past year.

 

 

That paragraph that I bolded is the key to good marshaling.  The front 9 is where you absolutely MUST focus your efforts.  By the time a slow group makes the turn, the pace is shot to hell and you might as well just go out ball hawking, because you have failed as a marshal/ranger/player's assistant - whatever they call it at your course.  As starter I managed to get rangers I worked with on this page with me, and it made a ton of difference.  I even had players stop by the window after the round compliment us on improving our weekend pace from the last time he played there.  Unfortunately, not all starters were as proactive as I was with the guys, so the experience wasn't always as positive.

[Bucki1968]

Some of you will think I'm crazy but this is the time of year that I put the clubs away. Living in Florida in the height of "season" is a guarantee that you will be playing 5-6 hour rounds of golf. Courses overbook, won't have a ranger who will actually speed up play, and won't say anything to the group that stops after 9 holes and gets food and beer etc. causing an even larger back up. Watching one person get out of the cart, make four practice swings while the rest of the group sits in the cart and watches (and then they hit it 40 yards) is proof that not many players know how to play "ready golf". I worked as a pro for 10 years (not any more) and have always said that you can play bad golf quickly but it seems to be getting worse. I used to be the "asshole" ranger because I would tell people to pick up the pace or they had to skip the next hole to get caught up, but for the most part it kept more people happy than mad. The greater good.

[Marty2019]

14 hours ago, Bucki1968 said:

Some of you will think I'm crazy but this is the time of year that I put the clubs away. Living in Florida in the height of "season" is a guarantee that you will be playing 5-6 hour rounds of golf. Courses overbook, won't have a ranger who will actually speed up play, and won't say anything to the group that stops after 9 holes and gets food and beer etc. causing an even larger back up. Watching one person get out of the cart, make four practice swings while the rest of the group sits in the cart and watches (and then they hit it 40 yards) is proof that not many players know how to play "ready golf". I worked as a pro for 10 years (not any more) and have always said that you can play bad golf quickly but it seems to be getting worse. I used to be the "asshole" ranger because I would tell people to pick up the pace or they had to skip the next hole to get caught up, but for the most part it kept more people happy than mad. The greater good.

That's why I don't play golf on the weekends.   I'm fortunate to be retired and able to play during the week.   I feel for you guys who have to play weekends. 

If I'm not playing the course where I am a member, I use Golfnow.com and find the lowest priced tee time at the other course I play regularly.   I figure if they price it that low, things must be really slack that time of day. 

[ghalfaire]

 

5 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

That's why I don't play golf on the weekends.   I'm fortunate to be retired and able to play during the week.   I feel for you guys who have to play weekends. 

If I'm not playing the course where I am a member, I use Golfnow.com and find the lowest priced tee time at the other course I play regularly.   I figure if they price it that low, things must be really slack that time of day. 

I suspect that can help but around here we have an abundance of retired golfers coming in from all the snowy places and it can be slow on any given day, especially on the more affordable courses.  Most of the courses around here depend upon the Winter visitors to remain profitable as not many golfer out when the temps begin to hit 110 F.  So there is an incentive to pack the course in peak season as you have to make the year's  profits in about 4 months.  I would think Florida would have a similar problem (or blessing depending upon your view).   In any case the only solution is for the course to take ownership of the pace of play and enforce it.  The "ownership" should also be aware that the course set up can be factor in the pace of play as the OP alluded to.  It isn't always the golfers, sometimes it is the length of rough, width of fairways, speed of greens, locations of the holes on the green, length of the course from "members' tees, and other factors. 

[Cartboy]

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2015 at 2:36 PM, Fourputt said:

That paragraph that I bolded is the key to good marshaling.  The front 9 is where you absolutely MUST focus your efforts.  By the time a slow group makes the turn, the pace is shot to hell and you might as well just go out ball hawking, because you have failed as a marshal/ranger/player's assistant - whatever they call it at your course. 

You're preaching to the choir, but I don't call the shots.  That's why I started this thread and why I took the problem up with our management company (knowing what the result would be with our Pro and GM).

22 hours ago, Bucki1968 said:

Some of you will think I'm crazy but this is the time of year that I put the clubs away. Living in Florida in the height of "season" is a guarantee that you will be playing 5-6 hour rounds of golf. Courses overbook, won't have a ranger who will actually speed up play, and won't say anything to the group that stops after 9 holes and gets food and beer etc. causing an even larger back up. Watching one person get out of the cart, make four practice swings while the rest of the group sits in the cart and watches (and then they hit it 40 yards) is proof that not many players know how to play "ready golf". I worked as a pro for 10 years (not any more) and have always said that you can play bad golf quickly but it seems to be getting worse. I used to be the "asshole" ranger because I would tell people to pick up the pace or they had to skip the next hole to get caught up, but for the most part it kept more people happy than mad. The greater good.

I was the outside Supervisor/Retrainer at a 400-member, 27-hole Florida course that has become notorious for it's alligator pics and videos on the Internet.  We did 350-400 rounds a day during Snowbird season.

No thanks to me, we seldom ever went over 4 hours.  I credit that on it being a flat Florida course that is easy to navigate.

The members demanded 2 Rangers be on duty at all times . . . to keep the other golfers moving, of course. 

[SavvySwede]

3 hours ago, Cartboy said:

I was the outside Supervisor/Retrainer at a 400-member, 27-hole Florida course that has become notorious for it's alligator pics and videos on the Internet.  We did 350-400 rounds a day during Snowbird season.

No thanks to me, we seldom ever went over 4 hours.  I credit that on it being a flat Florida course that is easy to navigate.

The members demanded 2 Rangers be on duty at all times . . . to keep the other golfers moving, of course. 

Wasn't Myakka Pines was it?