Pace Problem

[Cartboy]

Do I think our GM and Pro would adopt what I am suggesting as a course policy?

No.

 

[Cartboy]

10 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

You (or your mangers) still don't seem to understand that catching another group and playing through them is slower for both groups (and for any groups following them) than if they are all simply required by policy to keep the pace.  The rules are just swell, but playing through should only be something that happens in cases with extenuating circumstances, not a regular habit.  The Rules of Golf were never intended to be used as an excuse for a chronic inability to keep pace with the course.

When the course allows certain groups make a habit of playing so slowly that other groups overtake them and have to play through, then you have failed in establishing and maintaining an effective pace of play policy.  That policy is mired in a time warp from the era when courses were never full.  Those days no longer exist and different steps must be taken if a course is really serious about their pace of play.  It's apparent that your course is more concerned about the minority than they are about the majority.  I hope that doesn't eventually bite them in the behind.

If that works on your course, that's what you should do.

Actually, though, the time warp factor is that Pace has Priority on the Course is a fairly recent change in the rules of golf, designed to accommodate golfers.  From memory, I believe the rule change came about in 2008. 

Prior to that, of course, the rule was that size of group had priority on the course.

Here is the rulebook now:

Players should play at a good pace. It is the group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

Priority on the course is determined by a group’s pace of play, not by the number of players in a group. A single player has the same rights on the course as a 2, 3 or 4 ball.

But, like I said, I'm just seeing what could be, rather than what will be.  If nothing in our policy changes, this season we will get bad reviews because of slow play just like all previous seasons.

[Cartboy]

We (marshals) keep track of pace by cart #.  The Starter writes down the cart #s for each group, so the Marshal knows exactly what time each group teed off.  That helps the staff, but it does not have a psychological effect on the golfers.

What if . . .

the Starter posted the starting time of each group in the carts' signholders?  Either write it down with a big marker or have a set of pre-printed starting time signs.  It would not be as exact, but you could post those signs when the group arrives, so they know when to be at the first tee and other groups that try to jump them at the first tee don't get to.

Then the marshal and the golfer  as that immediate reference on the course.

Do it regardless of how you enforce Pace of Play.

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by Cartboy

[mcanadiens]

I might of mentioned this somewhere before, but one course I played at OBX had an effective approach to it.

The Currituck Club in Carolla has GPS in the carts and displays whether you are on pace or not. I was playing with a beginner that day (hence a late afternoon tee time). By the time we got the the second tee, the screen was already an angry shade of red and showed how many minutes behind we were. ... We had no one behind us anyway, but picked up the pace.

Obviously, GPS is for the fancy courses, but it does remove ignorance from the equation.

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

We (marshals) keep track of pace by cart #.  The Starter writes down the cart #s for each group, so the Marshal knows exactly what time each group teed off.  That helps the staff, but it does not have a psychological effect on the golfers.

What if . . .

the Starter posted the starting time of each group in the carts' signholders?  Either write it down with a big marker or have a set of pre-printed starting time signs.  It would not be as exact, but you could post those signs when the group arrives, so they know when to be at the first tee and other groups that try to jump them at the first tee don't get to.

Then the marshal and the golfer  as that immediate reference on the course.

Do it regardless of how you enforce Pace of Play.

 

My home course used to do this but it had little effect on the players.  It was more a reference for the rangers.  Now they get printouts of the tee sheet, and since all groups start on time or they don't start, all the ranger needs is the cart numbers of each rider.  That way even with groups of walkers mixed in with the riders, they still know when each group started and they have a spreadsheet matrix printed and laminated that shows when each group should be at each tee based on starting time.  The ranger can tell at a glance when a group is off pace, and if there is also a gap in front of them they can count on seeing him heading their way.  

We focus our efforts on the first 6 holes of the front nine.  A player may not see the ranger more than in passing once he's made the turn.  At the turn, if a group is behind, the starter will counsel them.  The starter records all turn and finish times for every group, so he and the rangers know the status of the course and where the problems lie at all times.

[iacas]

Not for nothing, @Cartboy, but we have other topics here for those who like to talk about golf.

[Missouri Swede]

2 hours ago, Cartboy said:

Here is the rulebook now:

Players should play at a good pace. It is the group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

Priority on the course is determined by a group’s pace of play, not by the number of players in a group. A single player has the same rights on the course as a 2, 3 or 4 ball.

Good to know that it's in the book (and also a good reference when someone says that "a single player has no standing on the course" or similar nonsense).  A fine point, but recognize it's in Etiquette section and not one of the 34 rules of play.

[Cartboy]

23 hours ago, Fourputt said:

You (or your mangers) still don't seem to understand that catching another group and playing through them is slower for both groups (and for any groups following them) than if they are all simply required by policy to keep the pace.  The rules are just swell, but playing through should only be something that happens in cases with extenuating circumstances, not a regular habit.  The Rules of Golf were never intended to be used as an excuse for a chronic inability to keep pace with the course.

When the course allows certain groups make a habit of playing so slowly that other groups overtake them and have to play through, then you have failed in establishing and maintaining an effective pace of play policy.  That policy is mired in a time warp from the era when courses were never full.  Those days no longer exist and different steps must be taken if a course is really serious about their pace of play.  It's apparent that your course is more concerned about the minority than they are about the majority.  I hope that doesn't eventually bite them in the behind.

I will accept that you don't understand that we have tried everything we can to get slow groups to speed up, everything mentioned in this thread and a lot more, and it has not worked.

So, I am looking for another way to resolve the problem.

I'm glad your tactic works on your course.

& do I think our course will implement what I am suggesting?  No.  We will do what we've always done and there will be five and six hour rounds.

21 hours ago, Fourputt said:

My home course used to do this but it had little effect on the players.  It was more a reference for the rangers.  Now they get printouts of the tee sheet, and since all groups start on time or they don't start, all the ranger needs is the cart numbers of each rider.  That way even with groups of walkers mixed in with the riders, they still know when each group started and they have a spreadsheet matrix printed and laminated that shows when each group should be at each tee based on starting time.  The ranger can tell at a glance when a group is off pace, and if there is also a gap in front of them they can count on seeing him heading their way.  

We focus our efforts on the first 6 holes of the front nine.  A player may not see the ranger more than in passing once he's made the turn.  At the turn, if a group is behind, the starter will counsel them.  The starter records all turn and finish times for every group, so he and the rangers know the status of the course and where the problems lie at all times.

That's how we work, too.  Well, except for getting on it early in the round.

We have no walkers.  None.

The turn does not come by the clubhouse.

Yeah, our Rangers/Marshals know when someone is behind pace, but the slow group does not always seem to know.  We marshal by gaps, too.  Gaps and groups waiting behind the group that has a gap.

[Cartboy]

20 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

Good to know that it's in the book (and also a good reference when someone says that "a single player has no standing on the course" or similar nonsense).  A fine point, but recognize it's in Etiquette section and not one of the 34 rules of play.

Yup, in Etiquette . . . maybe because it is intended to be so basic to the game that it doesn't warrant having a specific rule.

But, I agree that it creates a problem with some foursomes. 

You can tell that from this thread, that groups playing through is a sore point with some, traditional golfers.  If there are rules in the book designed to accommodate others on the course, and golfers choose to ignore them, that's a problem.

So, slow groups piss off the groups behind them and letting faster groups play through pisses off the slow group.

Tough gig, huh!?

Yesterday I googled Pace of Play, to see if I am far off-base.  What I found is that slow play is the major complaint among golfers.  A majority of golfers think they don't play slow, and a majority of golfers think that a majority of other golfers play slow.

One report I read put the number that have quit the game because of slow play in the millions.  A course with a reputation for slow play loses a lot of play, eventually.

 

Edited February 11, 2016 by Cartboy

[bkuehn1952]

A procedure that works for our club-without-real-estate is "splitting".  We take over a course and have a shot gun start.  Every hole has a group on the tee, most have two groups.  Everyone is 50+ and some push 90.  Handicaps range from 0-36. Bang!  Off we go.

Now the problems start.  The 2nd group off #7 has a foursome of somewhat more deliberate players.  Try as they might, by #10 they are a hole behind the group in front and the rest of us are starting to stack up behind them.  We split them into two groups of 2.  The first 2-some fairly quickly catches the 4-some in front and starts to keep pace.  The 2nd 2-some eventually catches the first 2-some and they rejoin as a group.  Gap eliminated and the "flow" is better.

An added benefit is the peer pressure created.  No one wants to be known as a member whose groups always need to split. Many members figure out ways to speed up to avoid being forced to split (e.g. as each holes out, they go to the next tee and tee off while the rest putt out).

Initially, I was dubious about splitting.  It is counter intuitive to think creating MORE groups will speed things up.  And truthfully, the round really doesn't get shortened by an appreciable amount.  What the splitting does is even out the flow.

This process could be hard to implement on a regular Saturday.  Still, it might be something to consider as an experiment.  Maybe offer the group a sleeve of golf balls if they successfully split, catch-up and rejoin?

[Golfingdad]

Good news!  I don't have a link but TGC just announced that the European Tours new Pace of Play policy implemented last month has lowered average round times in all of the events since, in the first and second rounds, by between 4 and 17 minutes versus those same events last season.

The other info I don't have on hand is exactly what the new policy is. I know it involved some sort of penalty for Jordan Spieth at Abu Dhabi, but that is the extent of my knowledge. :P

Regardless, faster is always better!!

[Fourputt]

33 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Good news!  I don't have a link but TGC just announced that the European Tours new Pace of Play policy implemented last month has lowered average round times in all of the events since, in the first and second rounds, by between 4 and 17 minutes versus those same events last season.

The other info I don't have on hand is exactly what the new policy is. I know it involved some sort of penalty for Jordan Spieth at Abu Dhabi, but that is the extent of my knowledge. :P

Regardless, faster is always better!!

The way I understand it, Spieth was given a ticket like a traffic warning.  If he gets tagged again during the season in a Euro Tour event, he gets fined.  The problem is that the fine I saw was only about $3000, not really enough for him to get that worried about it.  What I read, instead of him taking it to heart and committing himself to doing better, he just got pissed off for being tagged.

I think it would be far more effective to have a stroke penalty structure like the LPGA has.  That seems to get the players attention more effectively.

[Golfingdad]

3 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

The way I understand it, Spieth was given a ticket like a traffic warning.  If he gets tagged again during the season in a Euro Tour event, he gets fined.  The problem is that the fine I saw was only about $3000, not really enough for him to get that worried about it.  What I read, instead of him taking it to heart and committing himself to doing better, he just got pissed off for being tagged.

I think it would be far more effective to have a stroke penalty structure like the LPGA has.  That seems to get the players attention more effectively.

I agree.  That's the only thing these guys would really take seriously, I'm sure.

But even incremental improvement is better than nothing. :)

[ZappyAd]

14 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I think it would be far more effective to have a stroke penalty structure like the LPGA has.  That seems to get the players attention more effectively.

+1 Fining these guys a few thousand dollars is just pointless - they don't feel any impact from it and so it doesn't change their behaviour.  I think strokes is a much better solution, or, if it has to be money then fine a percentage of their winnings from that tournament or from the year.  

With the amount of data that is being collected on tour at the moment it should be really easy to figure out who is playing slowly and by how much, thereby putting a figure on the performance which can be compared with a level that triggers a 'punishment'.  

[dak4n6]

2 hours ago, ZappyAd said:

+1 Fining these guys a few thousand dollars is just pointless - they don't feel any impact from it and so it doesn't change their behaviour.  I think strokes is a much better solution, or, if it has to be money then fine a percentage of their winnings from that tournament or from the year.

With the amount of data that is being collected on tour at the moment it should be really easy to figure out who is playing slowly and by how much, thereby putting a figure on the performance which can be compared with a level that triggers a 'punishment'.

Or they could just take their gorgeous PRS guitars away from them.

[Marty2019]

Speaking of pace of play, I am searching for a diplomatic way to get my playing partners to speed up.  They take so long strolling up to their ball, standing around thinking about it, lining up their shots, addressing the ball, thinking about it some more, and so on and so forth.  Then on the green, lining up their putt, looking at it from all angles, standing behind the ball thinking about it, and so on and so forth.   All this thinking doesn't seem to be helping their game.   Or maybe they'd be even worse if they didn't do this, I don't know.    If they were PGA Tour players, they'd be on the clock and they'd incur a penalty.  

I want them to enjoy their round.   I don't want to offend them or make them think I take the game too seriously.   But it's starting to drive me crazy.   I'm talking 5 hours the play 18 holes.   I'm getting tired of standing around watching people think about how to swing the club.   For God's sake, pull club, address ball, swing club, hit ball.   That takes no more than 20 seconds max. 

If anyone else has successfully dealt with such a thing, do you have any advice? 

Edited February 15, 2016 by Marty2019

[DaveP043]

I know I've talked to playing partners after a round about this kind of thing.  I'll typically try not to blame anyone in particular, so its "Do you know we just took 5 whole hours to play?  That's just too damn long, we all have to get better".  If you're lucky, that will start a discussion about what each player can do.  Slow players commonly point the finger of blame at everyone and everything else.  I've found that if you confront them with facts (the time it took to play) it can at least occasionally spark a little bit of self-examination.  If that doesn't work, thy the "While we're alive" line during the round.  Not exactly diplomatic, I know, but it does get the message across.   

[Bill926]

Maybe it's a simple as you get what you pay for.  The muni course I play here is the cheapest in town, its always packed with all ages and skill levels, and the course really isn't that nice at all, so price has to be the reason.  There's no marshals, the starters are volunteers who only checks your receipt and tells you your're next, but expect to play a 5 hr round.

Another course which is a little nicer, charges about $15 more, and you can get around there in a little over 4 hours on a Saturday morning, EXCEPT when they run a really cheap special, and book 7-8 min tee times, by 9 AM there is a 4 group backup on the first tee, and it is going to take 6 hours to play if you didn't get out early.

Then there's a course that charges at least double what the other ones do, nice course always in good shape, always a starter and marshals checking cart numbers, its crowded but not overly, and you can get around in 4 hours or less.  The only special they do is an afternoon shotgun, play as much as you can before dark.

So what is it, less people = better pace, or maybe the people that are willing to pay more are better at keeping up the pace?