Pace Problem

[wils5150]

Thanks.

We have five pin placements that rotate each day.  On the first green, one of them is always on a slope where the b all cannot stop at the hole.  I cannot get the Superintendent or GM to consider not putting it there.

doesnt matter what course you are at there will always be some less popular placements and its only going to get worse. Do you work at a course? what do you do?

[Cartboy]

doesnt matter what course you are at there will always be some less popular placements and its only going to get worse. Do you work at a course? what do you do?

Guest Services Supervisor for a major management company . . . in charge of the Player Services staff and cart maintetenance.

The course superintendent and I are the two longest-tenured employees, so each of us talking to the other about stuff outside our domain is not uncommon.

I understand tough pin placement, but not impossible ones, where there is no way for the ball to stop at the hole.  It's on the first green and I hate to see players having to start out that way.

[wils5150]

Guest Services Supervisor for a major management company . . . in charge of the Player Services staff and cart maintetenance.

The course superintendent and I are the two longest-tenured employees, so each of us talking to the other about stuff outside our domain is not uncommon.

I understand tough pin placement, but not impossible ones, where there is no way for the ball to stop at the hole.  It's on the first green and I hate to see players having to start out that way.

that's cool that you have a good working relationship.

[Club Rat]

Cartboy, it really sounds like you have your hands full and have indicated many of the suggested manners are ineffective.

Maybe it is time to look at the over all picture as to why your course has this ongoing issue.

I would suggest you address this as a per issue situation and make determinations of repetitive occurrences.

On a daily basis, where and when does a problem start that is clearly identifiable?

Most log jams occur on a Par 3 hole. Whether it is the first or second or third Par 3, these seem to always create problems for pace of play.

Example - do you constantly have 3 groups backed up on your first Par 3 hole on the course?

Then, does the backup occur on the next Par 3 hole on the front? Does it follow up with a backup on the next Par 3 on the back?

Does the daily pace become corrected for a few holes, then become problems again? And on which part of the course is this occurring?

Does the pace become severely ineffective during any specific time of day on a continuing daily basis?

If you take a closer look at what is causing the ongoing problems, then maybe you will be able to identify specific issues and address them accordingly.

Club Rat

[Cartboy]

Here's where I'm at (first draft):

PACE OF PLAY POLICY

(IF WE SAY WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE PACE OF PLAY, THEN GOLFERS DON’T SEE US OUT THERE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, THEY WILL KNOW WE ARE JUST PAYING IT LIP SERVICE. IT HAS BEEN A PROBLEM FROM THE FIRST DAY, SO LET’S FIGURE OUT A CONSISTENT POLICY TO DEAL WITH IT.)

UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS, THE MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE PACE OF PLAY IS 4½ HOURS, WHICH TRANSLATES TO FOUR HOLES PER HOUR. EARLY TEE TIMES ARE CRUCIAL AS THEY SET THE PACE FOR THE DAY. SINCE THE COURSE IS CLEAR, THERE SHOULD BE NO REASON FOR EARLY TEE TIMES TO BE BEHIND PACE.

OUR PLAYER SERVICES STAFF WILL NOT CONTACT ANYONE ABOUT PACE UNLESS THEY ARE AT A PACE SLOWER THAN 4½ HOURS AND ONLY IF IT IS AFFECTING OTHER PLAYERS. ALL OF OUR STAFF ARE TRAINED TO BE POLITE AND CONSIDERATE, AND WE EXPECT YOU TO BE THE SAME, UNDERSTANDING THAT THEIR JOB IS A SERVICE TO ALL PLAYERS ON THE COURSE.

THE FIRST WARNING WILL BE A NOTICE THAT YOUR PACE IS GREATER THAN 4½ HOURS, AND YOU WILL BE EXPECTED TO SPEED UP.

(IDEA: AT THE FIRST WARNING, HAND THEM A SHEET WITH SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO SPEED UP.

(IF YOU HAVE TO WARN A GROUP, LET THE GROUPS BEHIND THEM KNOW THAT, AND ASK THEM TO CALL THE PRO SHOP IF THE PACE DOES NOT IMPROVE.)

THE SECOND WARNING WILL BE THAT YOU HAVE NOT CORRECTED YOUR PACE, OR, IF YOU HAVE SHOWN IMPROVEMENT, YOU WILL BE ENCOURAGED TO KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, BUT YOU NEED TO KEEP TRYING.

IF A THIRD WARNING IS NECESSARY, IT WILL BE BY THE GOLF PROFESSIONAL OR THE GENERAL MANAGER, WHO WILL BE EMPOWERED TO TAKE WHATEVER ACTION IS NECESSARY FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHER GOLFERS AND THE REPUTATION OF OUR COURSE. OPTIONS INCLUDE DEMANDING THAT THEY PICK UP AND MOVE TO WHERE THEY SHOULD BE ON THE COURSE, TAKE A TIMEOUT AND LET GROUPS PLAY THROUGH, OR LEAVE THE COURSE (WITH OR WITHOUT PARTIAL RAIN CHECK).

DISRESPECTFUL OR UNRULY CONDUCT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

- - - - - -

SUGGESTIONS TO SPEED UP PLAY

***TRY. MAKE A CONSCIOUS EFFORT TO SPEED UP. FOUR HOLES AN HOUR, NO MORE THAN 15 MINUTES PER HOLE, 18 ON PAR 5‘S. BE THE ONE WHO TAKES CHARGE OF YOUR GROUP AND KEEPS THEM MOVING.

***THINK AHEAD FOR YOUR NEXT SHOT.

***PLAY READY GOLF. IF ANOTHER PLAYER IS NOT IN YOUR LINE, HIT.

***NO HONORS. GET ON THE TEE AND HIT.

***PLAY THE BALL UP EVERYWHERE.

***DON’T LOOK FOR ERRANT SHOTS. PLAY THEM AS A LATERAL HAZARD. DROP A BALL, TAKE A STROKE, AND GO ON.

***GIMME PUTTS INSIDE THE LEATHER.

***TWO-PUTT RULE, ONLY MARK YOUR BALL ONCE.

***REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE YOUR PACE TO BE, IF YOU SEE THE GROUP BEHIND YOU WAITING ON YOU, LET THEM PLAY THROUGH

- - - - - -

IMPLEMENTING IT

ON BUSY DAYS WITH SOLID TEE TIMES, AT ONE HOUR AFTER THE FIRST TEE TIME ONE OF THE PLAYER SERVICES STAFF WILL TAKE WATER TO THE 4TH HOLE, CHECKING TO MAKE SURE THE LEAD GROUP IS AT LEAST ON THE 5 ^TH TEE. IF THEY ARE NOT, THE FIRST WARNING WILL BE GIVEN.

THEN, QUICKLY MARSHAL BACKWARDS AND WARN GROUPS WITH GAPS.

AT TWO HOURS AFTER THE FIRST TEE TIME, ONE OF THE PLAYER SERVICES STAFF WILL TAKE WATER TO THE 8 ^TH HOLE, CHECKING TO MAKE SURE THE LEAD GROUP HAS FINISHED THE 8 ^TH HOLE. THEN, MARSHAL BACKWARDS AS BEFORE, ISSUING FIRST OR SECOND WARNINGS AS NEEDED.

AS CLOSE TO THREE HOURS AFTER THE FIRST TEE TIME, ONE OF THE PLAYER SERVICES STAFF WILL TAKE WATER TO THE 11 ^TH AND 15 ^TH HOLE, OBSERVING WHERE GROUPS ARE. IF A THIRD WARNING IS NECESSARY, THEY WILL RADIO IN TO THE PRO SHOP, AND THE PRO OF GM WILL BE THE ONE TO MAKE THE THIRD CONTACT.

THE GM AND PRO WILL DETERMINE WHAT WE SAY AND HOW WE SAY IT, AND WE WILL NEVER DO IT ANY OTHER WAY.

[Cartboy]

that's cool that you have a good working relationship

To be frank, our superintendent would prefer that we not have golfers at all and that my staff can somehow control where they go with their carts.  Part of our pace problem is that too many fairways are often roped off, the "Cart Return" signs are too far out, and it is a bit of a walk from carts to some greens and tees.

My job is not to whine, but to accept what is, a limited budget, and deal with it.  For instance, from the beginning we have needed a shorter tee setting for Men, but building new tee boxes was out of the question.  I was fortunate to pick up the idea of Combo tees from a co-worker at my Winter Florida course, so we now have a 5877 option (down from 6299).  The member group I play with resisted it last year, but started playing it this year.

[David in FL]

Here's where I'm at (first draft):

PACE OF PLAY POLICY

(IF WE SAY WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE PACE OF PLAY, THEN GOLFERS DON’T SEE US OUT THERE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, THEY WILL KNOW WE ARE JUST PAYING IT LIP SERVICE. IT HAS BEEN A PROBLEM FROM THE FIRST DAY, SO LET’S FIGURE OUT A CONSISTENT POLICY TO DEAL WITH IT.)

UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS, THE MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE PACE OF PLAY IS 4½ HOURS, WHICH TRANSLATES TO FOUR HOLES PER HOUR. EARLY TEE TIMES ARE CRUCIAL AS THEY SET THE PACE FOR THE DAY. SINCE THE COURSE IS CLEAR, THERE SHOULD BE NO REASON FOR EARLY TEE TIMES TO BE BEHIND PACE.

OUR PLAYER SERVICES STAFF WILL NOT CONTACT ANYONE ABOUT PACE UNLESS THEY ARE AT A PACE SLOWER THAN 4½ HOURS AND ONLY IF IT IS AFFECTING OTHER PLAYERS.  ALL OF OUR STAFF ARE TRAINED TO BE POLITE AND CONSIDERATE, AND WE EXPECT YOU TO BE THE SAME, UNDERSTANDING THAT THEIR JOB IS A SERVICE TO ALL PLAYERS ON THE COURSE.

THE FIRST WARNING WILL BE A NOTICE THAT YOUR PACE IS GREATER THAN 4½ HOURS, AND YOU WILL BE EXPECTED TO SPEED UP.

(IDEA: AT THE FIRST WARNING, HAND THEM A SHEET WITH SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO SPEED UP.

(IF YOU HAVE TO WARN A GROUP, LET THE GROUPS BEHIND THEM KNOW THAT, AND ASK THEM TO CALL THE PRO SHOP IF THE PACE DOES NOT IMPROVE.)

THE SECOND WARNING WILL BE THAT YOU HAVE NOT CORRECTED YOUR PACE, OR, IF YOU HAVE SHOWN IMPROVEMENT, YOU WILL BE ENCOURAGED TO KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, BUT YOU NEED TO KEEP TRYING.

IF A THIRD WARNING IS NECESSARY, IT WILL BE BY THE GOLF PROFESSIONAL OR THE GENERAL MANAGER, WHO WILL BE EMPOWERED TO TAKE WHATEVER ACTION IS NECESSARY FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHER GOLFERS AND THE REPUTATION OF OUR COURSE. OPTIONS INCLUDE DEMANDING THAT THEY PICK UP AND MOVE TO WHERE THEY SHOULD BE ON THE COURSE, TAKE A TIMEOUT AND LET GROUPS PLAY THROUGH, OR LEAVE THE COURSE (WITH OR WITHOUT PARTIAL RAIN CHECK).

DISRESPECTFUL OR UNRULY CONDUCT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

- - - - - -

SUGGESTIONS TO SPEED UP PLAY

***TRY. MAKE A CONSCIOUS EFFORT TO SPEED UP. FOUR HOLES AN HOUR, NO MORE THAN 15 MINUTES PER HOLE, 18 ON PAR 5‘S. BE THE ONE WHO TAKES CHARGE OF YOUR GROUP AND KEEPS THEM MOVING.

***THINK AHEAD FOR YOUR NEXT SHOT.

***PLAY READY GOLF. IF ANOTHER PLAYER IS NOT IN YOUR LINE, HIT.

***NO HONORS. GET ON THE TEE AND HIT.

***PLAY THE BALL UP EVERYWHERE.

***DON’T LOOK FOR ERRANT SHOTS. PLAY THEM AS A LATERAL HAZARD. DROP A BALL, TAKE A STROKE, AND GO ON.

***GIMME PUTTS INSIDE THE LEATHER.

***TWO-PUTT RULE, ONLY MARK YOUR BALL ONCE.

***REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE YOUR PACE TO BE, IF YOU SEE THE GROUP BEHIND YOU WAITING ON YOU, LET THEM PLAY THROUGH

- - - - - -

IMPLEMENTING IT

ON BUSY DAYS WITH SOLID TEE TIMES, AT ONE HOUR AFTER THE FIRST TEE TIME ONE OF THE PLAYER SERVICES STAFF WILL TAKE WATER TO THE 4TH HOLE, CHECKING TO MAKE SURE THE LEAD GROUP IS AT LEAST ON THE 5TH TEE. IF THEY ARE NOT, THE FIRST WARNING WILL BE GIVEN.

THEN, QUICKLY MARSHAL BACKWARDS AND WARN GROUPS WITH GAPS.

AT TWO HOURS AFTER THE FIRST TEE TIME, ONE OF THE PLAYER SERVICES STAFF WILL TAKE WATER TO THE 8TH HOLE, CHECKING TO MAKE SURE THE LEAD GROUP HAS FINISHED THE 8TH HOLE. THEN, MARSHAL BACKWARDS AS BEFORE, ISSUING FIRST OR SECOND WARNINGS AS NEEDED.

AS CLOSE TO THREE HOURS AFTER THE FIRST TEE TIME, ONE OF THE PLAYER SERVICES STAFF WILL TAKE WATER TO THE 11TH AND 15TH HOLE, OBSERVING WHERE GROUPS ARE. IF A THIRD WARNING IS NECESSARY, THEY WILL RADIO IN TO THE PRO SHOP, AND THE PRO OF GM WILL BE THE ONE TO MAKE THE THIRD CONTACT.

THE GM AND PRO WILL DETERMINE WHAT WE SAY AND HOW WE SAY IT, AND WE WILL NEVER DO IT ANY OTHER WAY.

I think you're making a HUGE mistake by telling people that the max "allowable" pace of play is 4 1/2 hours.  I think you should tell them the expectation that a round be completed in 4 hours (or whatever).  Think of it as the speed limit sign on the highway.  It may legally represent the max allowable speed, but most people don't treat it like that.  Do you really want people thinking that 4 1/2 hours is acceptable?  Because that's what they're going to hear.......

Unless, of course, you really consider 4 1/2 hours to be a respectable pace of play.

[wils5150]

To be frank, our superintendent would prefer that we not have golfers at all  and that my staff can somehow control where they go with their carts.  Part of our pace problem is that too many fairways are often roped off, the "Cart Return" signs are too far out, and it is a bit of a walk from carts to some greens and tees.

Sounds like the complaints from my shop staff .I would love no golfers too!!

[Cartboy]

I think you're making a HUGE mistake by telling people that the max "allowable" pace of play is 4 1/2 hours.  I think you should tell them the expectation that a round be completed in 4 hours (or whatever).  Think of it as the speed limit sign on the highway.  It may legally represent the max allowable speed, but most people don't treat it like that.  Do you really want people thinking that 4 1/2 hours is acceptable?  Because that's what they're going to hear.......

Unless, of course, you really consider 4 1/2 hours to be a respectable pace of play.

You're last sentence is the operable one here.  Everyone knows our course is challenging and expects it to take a bit longer.  A major golf course management company has come up with the idea that all courses should be played in 4:09.  That's not realistic for ours.  Actually, saying that would open us up to ridicule.  You can't promise something you can't provide.

We are not like your typical, flat Florida course.

Seriously, we have gotten our slow groups from 6 hours the first year to 5 hours now.  4 1/2 on a busy day is cause for celebration.

Our course was designed by a very competent "Champion" golfer.  Each of the first four sets of four holes consists of one Par 3, one Par 5, and two Par 4s.  Par 3s are paced at 12 minutes, Par 4s at 15 and Par 5s at 18.  Add them up and that's one hour for each of the four sets of four holes.  17 and 18 are both Par 4s, so add another 1/2 hour.

4 1/2 hours.

Being in a tourist area frequented by older golfers, asking for more would be pushing many of them.  The health and well-being of our customers is important.

[Lihu]

The rules look good. I agree with Dave that the wording should indicate an optimum play of 4 hours per round.

The lost ball part makes sense, but I am not sure how many golfers will appreciate that.

Perhaps you could outline the critical three items on a sign on the first tee. Too many words and no one will read it.

Rain check for slow play? You can consider a partial refund, but note that that would be a bit unfair to the parties that needed to endure the 5 or 6 hour round.

The way I look at playing on the course, is if you are not that good (single digit), you have no business taking the same amount of time a pro takes to hit a ball. For one, you will probably be making 5 to 6 shots on a par 4, rather than 3 to 4. This is about twice the time. If you take 6+ strokes, any "long routine" won't help your game anyway. Secondly, you will not learn that pace of play is just as critical as hitting good shots. I see the SCGA tournaments all the time, these kids play fast and not rushed.

If you try to emulate a long pre-shot routine some pro uses for accurate placement before you can hit that well, you WILL take twice as long per hole and it's UNFAIR to your playing partners because they would need to rush their shots to keep pace.

[Cartboy]

Bear in mind that we would only be asking slow groups to make changes, and at the first warning we would be offering a list of suggestions.  They can choose how they wish to speed up.  Pretty much the same with the second warning.

I believe just seeing and hearing from someone does the trick most of the time, but it would be nice to have some specific ideas to offer.

[Cartboy]

The rules look good. I agree with Dave that the wording should indicate an optimum play of 4 hours per round.

Have Dave come play our course on a busy day.  I'll get him on for 25 bucks and give him a teetime three hours after the first one!

[Dave2512]

Enforcement is the only cure for POP IMO. Those that disregard it aren't ignorant they don't care. I don't often encounter disruptive golfers that are just slow. I get the impression they believe their fees entitle them to use the course how ever they see fit regardless of how it affects others. Some of the slowest courses I played this year had pace of play clocks the size of car door on every tee box. That's about as obvious as it gets. The fastest courses I played had aggressive rangers, removed the back tees and forced people to play up or had GPS carts that controlled the pace. Some played much shorter than scorecard yardage from any tee. One course moved all the markers but reds to one box on par 3's to prevent people from slowing things down. Others required golfers to use drop areas to keep people from doing the Tin Cup thing. I don't see pace of place as a golf issue as much as we live in the entitlement age. You see similar bad behavior in every public place.

[David in FL]

You're last sentence is the operable one here.  Everyone knows our course is challenging and expects it to take a bit longer.  A major golf course management company has come up with the idea that all courses should be played in 4:09.  That's not realistic for ours.  Actually, saying that would open us up to ridicule.  You can't promise something you can't provide.

We are not like your typical, flat Florida course.

Seriously, we have gotten our slow groups from 6 hours the first year to 5 hours now.  4 1/2 on a busy day is cause for celebration.

Our course was designed by a very competent "Champion" golfer.  Each of the first four sets of four holes consists of one Par 3, one Par 5, and two Par 4s.  Par 3s are paced at 12 minutes, Par 4s at 15 and Par 5s at 18.  Add them up and that's one hour for each of the four sets of four holes.  17 and 18 are both Par 4s, so add another 1/2 hour.

4 1/2 hours.

Being in a tourist area frequented by older golfers, asking for more would be pushing many of them.  The health and well-being of our customers is important.

Sounds like a great track, can you give us a link so we can take a look at it?

Really though, regardless of how difficult the course is, 4:09 isn't an unreasonable expectation.....at least as a goal.  It's not that you're promising them that they'll be done that quickly, but if you start by telling people that they're going to have a 4 1/2 hour round, you're going to be lucky to get much under 5 hours.   If you're "celebrating" a 4 1/2 hour round, then I'm sorry, but you're part of the problem.

BTW......we've got the occasional tourist and older golfer down here too.....and even one or two decent courses!

[Fourputt]

Bear in mind that we would only be asking slow groups to make changes, and at the first warning we would be offering a list of suggestions.  They can choose how they wish to speed up.  Pretty much the same with the second warning.

I believe just seeing and hearing from someone does the trick most of the time, but it would be nice to have some specific ideas to offer.

One more suggestion, also from long experience, is to focus the bulk of your pace management and enforcement efforts on the front 9.  If a problem arises, it's too late to fix it midway through the back 9.  I was the starter on a busy course for 5 years, and part of my job was logging turn and finish times for every group.  When a group was late coming off the 9th green either I or a ranger was there to advise them of the issue.  Our rangers always focused 75% of their efforts on the front nine.  Usually you can spot a slow group by the 5th or 6th hole, because they will already be a half to a full hole off pace.

[Club Rat]

To start off, your thread is asking recommendations for "PACE PROBLEMS !"

Pace of play is when multiple groups play a course with every group maintains a minimum ratio of distance between the groups on a course at a given time when a course has a full tee sheet so that the field of golfers are always in motion forward, and not waiting to play each and every tee shot and approach to the green.

Pace of Play is not about any given time for any group, or individual with a designated allotment of time required for them to complete a round of golf !

Example - The first group on the course plays the course and when they finish they would be able to say that the Pace of Play for them was ideal!

They did not wait on any hole at any time in their round.

The second group of the day were waiting to play on every hole, but the group following them were three hole back.

Expectations for golfers to complete a round of golf within a certain time frame, is truly a miss reputation of many circumstances.

Many golfers can play a round of golf at a given course within a certain time frame on a given day, but then other days situations prevail which lead to less than desirable outcomes.

Not every golf course is golfer friendly, mother nature will affect a daily outcome, and every golfers abilities also equate to variations.

Figure out what is causing reoccurring "Pace Problems" and it will generally correct many time issues.

True, people in certain situations are a problem, as this has been discussed extensively on this site.

Suggestion, experiment by setting the tees on the front nine to a most forward position for one day and observe if it helps your course situation.

You indicate, "Part of our pace problem is that too many fairways are often roped off, the "Cart Return" signs are too far out, and it is a bit of a walk from carts to some greens and tees. From the beginning we have needed a shorter tee setting for Men" Also a suggestion for a set of Combo Tees, but I suggest you setup the course on a temporary trial, move a few tees forward as an experiment and observe if it will help correct your situation.

Find the source of your problem and you will have a better chance of resolving it.

Club Rat

[Cartboy]

I agree with the last few comments.

Since I am trying to correct an issue, and I am not speaking officailly for our course, I will not identify it.

Let's just say it is a hilly course with elevation change, no adjacent fairways, thick rough not far off the fairways, water and woods not far off the fairways, designed to attract a tour event, at least the Champions tour.

So, it's long, narrow, and physically demanding.  I have never played a course anywhere that is similar, even in Colorado and Kauai.  I am also a member at another local "mountain" course, also highly-rated, with elevation changes, but it is 8-10 strokes softer.

Like I said before, it's rated #1 in the State by Golfweek, so that narrows it down.

[Dave2512]

I agree with the last few comments.

Since I am trying to correct an issue, and I am not speaking officailly for our course, I will not identify it.

Let's just say it is a hilly course with elevation change, no adjacent fairways, thick rough not far off the fairways, water and woods not far off the fairways, designed to attract a tour event, at least the Champions tour.

So, it's long, narrow, and physically demanding.  I have never played a course anywhere that is similar, even in Colorado and Kauai.  I am also a member at another local "mountain" course, also highly-rated, with elevation changes, but it is 8-10 strokes softer.

Like I said before, it's rated #1 in the State by Golfweek, so that narrows it down.

Sounds like it might be a resort course and IMO that's an entirely different thing. Honestly I expect to play slow at courses like that. I am there to take it all in as much as golf. Mountain golf is different.