Player perspectives - CNC Milled Putter's vs. "standard" putters (2 Piece)

[BombTechGolf]

Wanted to get your thoughts..Do you play a 1 piece CNC milled putter or not? Do you think the performance and feel is drastically different and is it worth the extra costs?

[David in FL]

It seems to me that the question is similar to asking if you play forged or cast irons.  I don't know that the manufacturing method is a real consideration.....at least it isn't for me.  All I care about is how the club/putter looks at address and how it performs when I swing it.  The one that works best goes in the bag.

[saevel25]

I have to say that is one of the last things I care about. To me it is lumped into the feel category. For me that is a wide tolerance range. I need a putter that lines up correctly first. Then has the proper weighting (head versus counterbalance), golf shaft. then comes feel of the club.

No I don't think it is worth the extra cost. I think it is such a personal thing for a golfer that it isn't something that would give an advantage in the market place. You don't see everyone on the PGA tour using milled putter heads. There are a lot of putters with inserts.

[BombTechGolf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

It seems to me that the question is similar to asking if you play forged or cast irons.  I don't know that the manufacturing method is a real consideration.....at least it isn't for me.  All I care about is how the club/putter looks at address and how it performs when I swing it.  The one that works best goes in the bag.

Understood, but how do you think "feel" and good feel is generated? Production process

[saevel25]

Understood, but how do you think "feel" and good feel is generated? Production process

It is, and I can tell a difference between Milled putters and putters with inserts. The problem is cost versus benefit. When your looking at 250+ dollars for milled putter heads. To me they don't really give that much more benefit to my putting game. That is why I will stick with my cheaper putters with the face inserts. It is just a more economical way of making a putter with very good feel.

There are companies that go into other things, like in depth fitting methods, to supplement the cost. I think that is more beneficial then just just buying a product because it is faced milled.

[Mr. Desmond]

In your definition of one piece, do you also mean the hosel is one piece?

If so, I don't even know if I've putted with a one piece putter - I started out with Camerons before he went to Titleist, played several TP Mills by David Mills putters, Bobby Grace putters, and several other renown putter makers, and the above were all 2 piece with welded hosels. If Tiger won 14 Majors and 70 something with a 2 piece, I don't think it makes any difference.

[Pretzel]

I've never used a 1-piece putter but I've thought about trying to mill one myself for fun as a paperweight (designed it in Solidworks but never got it through Mastercam). It was something that made me wonder whether it would have a different feel than something like my Scotty Cameron where the hosel is welded to the clubhead.

The only concern I would have for a true 1-piece milled putterhead would be the manufacturing time to create one of them. The rough passes alone on my putter put me at an estimated time of around 10-20 minutes. Add in multiple finishing passes as well as the possibility of rejected parts should offsets be off and you could be looking at 30+ minutes to manufacture a single putter head. This, of course, is dependent on your manufacturing process though as well. A 5-axis machining center would be much more efficient than me running a regular 5-axis mill with stock mastercam 40% feed rates.

I'm curious as to what your design process was like. I know that your email said that you designed essentially to produce consistent distance and direction across the face of the putter, but how large of a role did feel/aesthetics play into the design? There are plenty of putters I've seen that could theoretically produce better results than my current one. However I couldn't see myself switching anytime soon due to preferring greatly the aesthetics, sound, and perceived feel of my current putter. Those factors combined more than make up for the small possible performance increase that a different putter could give me, just because putting is a game of touch and feel to me. Any clues as to your prototyping/design process would be appreciated.

In a more direct answer to your question as to how feel is perceived, I would say that about 75% of it has to be sound. This likely has to do with the fact that the vibration causing the sound is what you're actually feeling, but the sound is more easily processed since it isn't diluted by a 35" metal rod wrapped in rubber. I've found that a deeper sound will give the impression of something being softer whereas a high pitched click will lead me to believe that something is hard and unforgiving. I personally prefer a middle ground between the two extremes (high pitched and clicky vs deep and more resonating) as it gives me the feeling that the club is solid and not losing energy on impact due to deformation, but also isn't excessively hard to where I can't feel where the ball impacted the clubface.

That brings me up to my final point. My biggest thing for perceived feel is that I want to be able to tell, just by how impact feels, where on the face the ball hit. The sweet spot needs to feel different than the rest of the face to me simply for the reason that I want to improve. I know that, regardless of the club, your distance control will suffer should you miss the sweet spot and that little piece of feedback is my favorite tool to improve with. That being said, this is not necessarily the highest priority element of design. I would rank aesthetics most important to me in a putter (I won't touch a lot of the bulkier designs personally), sound/feel second, and feedback/performance aspects of it third.

[GaijinGolfer]

1-piece milled, preferrably made out of brass or forged carbon steel.  Ive tried insert putters and theyre OK but they dont offer the feel that a 1-piece does.

[Mr. Desmond]

I've never used a 1-piece putter but I've thought about trying to mill one myself for fun as a paperweight (designed it in Solidworks but never got it through Mastercam). It was something that made me wonder whether it would have a different feel than something like my Scotty Cameron where the hosel is welded to the clubhead.

The only concern I would have for a true 1-piece milled putterhead would be the manufacturing time to create one of them. The rough passes alone on my putter put me at an estimated time of around 10-20 minutes. Add in multiple finishing passes as well as the possibility of rejected parts should offsets be off and you could be looking at 30+ minutes to manufacture a single putter head. This, of course, is dependent on your manufacturing process though as well. A 5-axis machining center would be much more efficient than me running a regular 5-axis mill with stock mastercam 40% feed rates.

I'm curious as to what your design process was like. I know that your email said that you designed essentially to produce consistent distance and direction across the face of the putter, but how large of a role did feel/aesthetics play into the design? There are plenty of putters I've seen that could theoretically produce better results than my current one. However I couldn't see myself switching anytime soon due to preferring greatly the aesthetics, sound, and perceived feel of my current putter. Those factors combined more than make up for the small possible performance increase that a different putter could give me, just because putting is a game of touch and feel to me. Any clues as to your prototyping/design process would be appreciated.

In a more direct answer to your question as to how feel is perceived, I would say that about 75% of it has to be sound. This likely has to do with the fact that the vibration causing the sound is what you're actually feeling, but the sound is more easily processed since it isn't diluted by a 35" metal rod wrapped in rubber. I've found that a deeper sound will give the impression of something being softer whereas a high pitched click will lead me to believe that something is hard and unforgiving. I personally prefer a middle ground between the two extremes (high pitched and clicky vs deep and more resonating) as it gives me the feeling that the club is solid and not losing energy on impact due to deformation, but also isn't excessively hard to where I can't feel where the ball impacted the clubface.

That brings me up to my final point. My biggest thing for perceived feel is that I want to be able to tell, just by how impact feels, where on the face the ball hit. The sweet spot needs to feel different than the rest of the face to me simply for the reason that I want to improve. I know that, regardless of the club, your distance control will suffer should you miss the sweet spot and that little piece of feedback is my favorite tool to improve with. That being said, this is not necessarily the highest priority element of design. I would rank aesthetics most important to me in a putter (I won't touch a lot of the bulkier designs personally), sound/feel second, and feedback/performance aspects of it third.

I own an Edel with the UST Carbon Filter Shaft and I can tell when it is hit off the sweetspot and where it is hit --- it is very good feedback. It offers a more direct feel.

[BombTechGolf]

It is, and I can tell a difference between Milled putters and putters with inserts. The problem is cost versus benefit. When your looking at 250+ dollars for milled putter heads. To me they don't really give that much more benefit to my putting game. That is why I will stick with my cheaper putters with the face inserts. It is just a more economical way of making a putter with very good feel.

There are companies that go into other things, like in depth fitting methods, to supplement the cost. I think that is more beneficial then just just buying a product because it is faced milled.

Ok...that makes sense.  So what would you pay for a 100% milled putter made in USA? I saw another thread talking about USA made and if golfers cared..

[saevel25]

Ok...that makes sense.  So what would you pay for a 100% milled putter made in USA? I saw another thread talking about USA made and if golfers cared..

I am only one golfer, I am sure there are plenty of others that would like a milled putter. Unless a milled putter is comparable to ones with inserts, or has something other attached like in depth fitting process. I am not going to be pay more than what is the current market price for an insert type putter.

I know my putter is probably not 100% fitted for me. Its close enough right now. I wont buy a more expensive putter when its not fitted perfectly for me. To me it is to much risk to buy a putter that wont help out more than an insert.

[David in FL]

Understood, but how do you think "feel" and good feel is generated? Production process

Feel is subjective, and more the result of the overall design , rather than the process by which the design is transformed into the final product. At least that's my perspective. So I guess my answer is that I don't care how a putter is made.....that by itself has no bearing on my choice.

[BombTechGolf]

Feel is subjective, and more the result of the overall design, rather than the process by which the design is transformed into the final product.

At least that's my perspective. So I guess my answer is that I don't care how a putter is made.....that by itself has no bearing on my choice.

I would agree that most golfer's don't care about the production process, but if that creates a better product that it is what I can control and focus on improving.

[newtogolf]

Ok...that makes sense.  So what would you pay for a 100% milled putter made in USA? I saw another thread talking about USA made and if golfers cared..

It depends on what your target market is.  It's going to be tough to come out with a 100% milled putter that competes with SC, Betti, Edel, Odyssey, Ping, Nike and many others.  Putters from these companies are $200+ but each has their own niche in the industry, years of marketing, product endorsers on Tour and a proven track record of success.

If I were going to enter this market, I'd focus on the counter balanced or custom fit putter market to minimize the competition.  I don't think made in the USA is an advantage unless one is comparing two equally or very close performing and priced putters.

[BombTechGolf]

It depends on what your target market is.  It's going to be tough to come out with a 100% milled putter that competes with SC, Betti, Edel, Odyssey, Ping, Nike and many others.  Putters from these companies are $200+ but each has their own niche in the industry, years of marketing, product endorsers on Tour and a proven track record of success.

If I were going to enter this market, I'd focus on the counter balanced or custom fit putter market to minimize the competition.  I don't think made in the USA is an advantage unless one is comparing two equally or very close performing and priced putters.

Good points.  The biggest difference, is that BombTech golf sells direct to consumer so there is no retail mark up. Its a different approach than many take, but it allows a higher quality product at a lower price.  Going the traditional route just involves more costs to the end golfer, you!

[newtogolf]

Good points.  The biggest difference, is that BombTech golf sells direct to consumer so there is no retail mark up. Its a different approach than many take, but it allows a higher quality product at a lower price.  Going the traditional route just involves more costs to the end golfer, you!

Understood, but golfers like to test out putters before spending any significant amount of money on them, especially if the company is unfamiliar to them.  You will need some way to get your putters into their hands by either having demo days, fitting centers or at the very least a minimal risk money back guarantee.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BombTechGolf

Good points.  The biggest difference, is that BombTech golf sells direct to consumer so there is no retail mark up. Its a different approach than many take, but it allows a higher quality product at a lower price.  Going the traditional route just involves more costs to the end golfer, you!

Understood, but golfers like to test out putters before spending any significant amount of money on them, especially if the company is unfamiliar to them.  You will need some way to get your putters into their hands by either having demo days, fitting centers or at the very least a minimal risk money back guarantee.

This. There's not a hope that I'd just buy a putter without having a solid practice session with it to see how it feels and how my putting compares to my regular putter.

I've putted for a long time with a Bettinardi BC2 which I love and it was money well spent to me, however the last few weeks I've started using my old Ping 1/2 WackE which I've found is more suitable to the putting stroke I'm moving toward (despite hating the sound and feel off the face).

I'd also consider a proper putter fitting with Edel if the opportunity arose in the UK to do so.

For me insert or no insert is irrelevant as long as I can putt well with it - feel and sound are secondary.

[BombTechGolf]

Understood, but golfers like to test out putters before spending any significant amount of money on them, especially if the company is unfamiliar to them.  You will need some way to get your putters into their hands by either having demo days, fitting centers or at the very least a minimal risk money back guarantee.

I agree 100%.  Demo days are useful, but are difficult to get in hands of everyone.  I do offer a referral program that rewards golfers that have pulled the pin on the golf driver refer others, which has been the easiest way to get more product in the hands of golfers. The total destruction guarantee is for the Golf driver, may have to change that for a putter..Maybe total sinakablity guarantee.

Right now I offer an exchange for new set up or a 90% money back for driver that have been used.  I had a 100% money back guarantee but a few, took advantage of it and had no intention of buying..

All great points.