Wedges

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

I learn something new every day. I've always been under the impression that to completely make bounce irrelevant on a shot the forward shaft lean has to be greater than the amount of bounce, e.g. with my 58.10 I'd need to have 10 degrees of forward shaft lean to completely remove the bounce, otherwise the bounce will still be used to some degree.

From personal experience with the 58.10 off hard lies blading the ball happens far more often as the bounce simply can't go into the ground enough to slide under the ball without manufacturing shaft lean to prevent it.

Time to find the Edel thread methinks! :)

There's vids on here of Mike hitting pitches off of a putting green, Erik hitting pitches off of a carpet laid over concrete and there are lots of online videos of Stan Utley hitting wedges in a parking lot all with high bounce wedges.

Still confused here. The Edel website shows a whole range of wedges for different swing characteristics and many of them are "low bounce", e.g. for us sweepers. If I'm a sweeper I can see completely why it is that the high bounce wedge off a tight lie blades for me (I'm a hit and hold rather than flip at the ball player which I know isn't viewed well on TST).

[Mr. Desmond]

Still confused here. The Edel website shows a whole range of wedges for different swing characteristics and many of them are "low bounce", e.g. for us sweepers. If I'm a sweeper I can see completely why it is that the high bounce wedge off a tight lie blades for me (I'm a hit and hold rather than flip at the ball player which I know isn't viewed well on TST).

I think you're still confused.

I think it's called "hinge and hold" - but what most here say is that the "label" is a misnomer. If you're talking Phil, he hinges, engages the bounce, but does not flip - that is his "hold."

On TST, not all pitches are "flips." Most pitches are done with a flat left wrist. The emphasis you see here, and with Pete Cowan, Grant Waite, et al, is on shots around the green where to gain additional dynamic loft, one allows the club head to pass the hands.

High bounce does not mean "bounce" off the ground. It typically refers to the design of the sole that allows a club to get out of the ground easily after the divot. It also refers to the club's ability to "glide" along the ground to offer forgiveness - it will not dig.

A wedge with low bounce (stated and dynamic) will typically dig into the ground if not hit very shallow or into soft turf. It will not glide easily or forgive.

Most high bounce wedges on the market have a high leading edge that does not help on bare or drought turf conditions.

Edel wedges do not have that issue - my 60 has 18 degrees of bounce BUT its leading edge sits low to the ground like a low bounce wedge (even better than many low bounce wedges), but its bounce engages towards the back of the sole to offer forgiveness and glide. I play 90% of the time in drought, dry, and bare turf conditions, and the Edel performs wonderfully.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Still confused here. The Edel website shows a whole range of wedges for different swing characteristics and many of them are "low bounce", e.g. for us sweepers. If I'm a sweeper I can see completely why it is that the high bounce wedge off a tight lie blades for me (I'm a hit and hold rather than flip at the ball player which I know isn't viewed well on TST).

I think you're still confused.

I think it's called "hinge and hold" - but what most here say is that the "label" is a misnomer. If you're talking Phil, he hinges, engages the bounce, but does not flip - that is his "hold."

On TST, not all pitches are "flips." Most pitches are done with a flat left wrist. The emphasis you see here, and with Pete Cowan, Grant Waite, et al, is on shots around the green where to gain additional dynamic loft, one allows the club head to pass the hands.

High bounce does not mean "bounce" off the ground. It typically refers to the design of the sole that allows a club to get out of the ground easily after the divot. It also refers to the club's ability to "glide" along the ground to offer forgiveness - it will not dig.

A wedge with low bounce (stated and dynamic) will typically dig into the ground if not hit very shallow or into soft turf. It will not glide easily or forgive.

Most high bounce wedges on the market have a high leading edge that does not help on bare or drought turf conditions.

Edel wedges do not have that issue - my 60 has 18 degrees of bounce BUT its leading edge sits low to the ground like a low bounce wedge (even better than many low bounce wedges), but its bounce engages towards the back of the sole to offer forgiveness and glide. I play 90% of the time in drought, dry, and bare turf conditions, and the Edel performs wonderfully.

Ah nope I'm not talking about Phil's method. "Hit and hold" for me is hinging the club back and retaining the bulk of my right flying wedge but still allowing the clubhead to fire into ball but not letting it pass the hands at all. e.g. mainly pivot-driven.

I wasn't saying TST pitching is flipping by the way as there's a marked difference between a flip and allowing the club head to overtake the hands after the ball has left the face. ;)

I do understand what the "bounce" itself is and how it's supposed to be used but the confusion is how a high bounce wedge could be used on hard ground by someone who is typically a "picker" (and why Edel's website shows wedges to have low bounce as preference for "pickers") but on here the suggestion seems to be for having higher bounce irrelevant of how you play wedge shots.

I use Mizuno R12 wedges with a c-grind which allows for versatility around the greens and seems to be similar to the Edel types of grind:

My 58.10 is swapped straight out when the ground gets hard because I blade the ball far too much when the bounce is engaged fully or when I have to open the club for more height and even more bounce is exposed.

[Mr. Desmond]

Ah nope I'm not talking about Phil's method. "Hit and hold" for me is hinging the club back and retaining the bulk of my right flying wedge but still allowing the clubhead to fire into ball but not letting it pass the hands at all. e.g. mainly pivot-driven.

I wasn't saying TST pitching is flipping by the way as there's a marked difference between a flip and allowing the club head to overtake the hands after the ball has left the face. ;)

I do understand what the "bounce" itself is and how it's supposed to be used but the confusion is how a high bounce wedge could be used on hard ground by someone who is typically a "picker" (and why Edel's website shows wedges to have low bounce as preference for "pickers") but on here the suggestion seems to be for having higher bounce irrelevant of how you play wedge shots.

I use Mizuno R12 wedges with a c-grind which allows for versatility around the greens and seems to be similar to the Edel types of grind:

My 58.10 is swapped straight out when the ground gets hard because I blade the ball far too much when the bounce is engaged fully or when I have to open the club for more height and even more bounce is exposed.

Well, I didn't know about your hinge and hold definition for you - I like to keep the "wedge" for most shots but not the lag -- I am pivot-arm driven - it's a balance depending on distance and the shot. If you keep the lag, you will not expose the bounce.

As to Edel, you're fit for your swing. I am not saying high bounce for a picker - I am not a picker.  I am saying get fit for your swing. In Edel lingo, I am a "Trapper."

As to your issues with Mizuno wedges, I have experienced the same inconsistent blading with Miura and Mizuno wedges - which is why I like a low leading edge - but my swing requires bounce to smooth out the club-ground interaction. So what I'm saying is that I get a wedge that is fit for my swing and allows me to hit every shot in the book.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Ah nope I'm not talking about Phil's method. "Hit and hold" for me is hinging the club back and retaining the bulk of my right flying wedge but still allowing the clubhead to fire into ball but not letting it pass the hands at all. e.g. mainly pivot-driven.

I wasn't saying TST pitching is flipping by the way as there's a marked difference between a flip and allowing the club head to overtake the hands after the ball has left the face. ;)

I do understand what the "bounce" itself is and how it's supposed to be used but the confusion is how a high bounce wedge could be used on hard ground by someone who is typically a "picker" (and why Edel's website shows wedges to have low bounce as preference for "pickers") but on here the suggestion seems to be for having higher bounce irrelevant of how you play wedge shots.

I use Mizuno R12 wedges with a c-grind which allows for versatility around the greens and seems to be similar to the Edel types of grind:

My 58.10 is swapped straight out when the ground gets hard because I blade the ball far too much when the bounce is engaged fully or when I have to open the club for more height and even more bounce is exposed.

Well, I didn't know about your hinge and hold definition for you - I like to keep the "wedge" for most shots but not the lag -- I am pivot-arm driven - it's a balance depending on distance and the shot. If you keep the lag, you will not expose the bounce.

As to Edel, you're fit for your swing. I am not saying high bounce for a picker - I am not a picker.  I am saying get fit for your swing. In Edel lingo, I am a "Trapper."

As to your issues with Mizuno wedges, I have experienced the same inconsistent blading with Miura and Mizuno wedges - which is why I like a low leading edge - but my swing requires bounce to smooth out the club-ground interaction. So what I'm saying is that I get a wedge that is fit for my swing and allows me to hit every shot in the book.

All the lag is dumped into the back of the ball, hence why it's a hit and hold for me; I just stop the clubhead from passing the hands that's all. :)

Clearly I'm no Hogan but that's the feeling I have on pitch shots.

Alas there's nowhere in the UK that does Edel fitting (and the one place in Scotland I believe also no longer does) so the only time an Edel fitting could ever occur would be if I was on business in the states (Philly) and managed to squeeze enough time to get to a fitting and also be able to take the clubs back through customs. There'd also have to be a lot of trust in the fitting itself as I wouldn't have an opportunity to try them on course if there was any type of on course trial involved.

I hit my Mizzies well 95% of the time and the other 5% I just swap the 58.10 out for a 60.05 and that's perfect for "picking" on hard ground.

[iacas]

Ah nope I'm not talking about Phil's method. "Hit and hold" for me is hinging the club back and retaining the bulk of my right flying wedge but still allowing the clubhead to fire into ball but not letting it pass the hands at all. e.g. mainly pivot-driven.

I wasn't saying TST pitching is flipping by the way as there's a marked difference between a flip and allowing the club head to overtake the hands after the ball has left the face. ;)

All the lag is dumped into the back of the ball, hence why it's a hit and hold for me; I just stop the clubhead from passing the hands that's all. :)

Clearly I'm no Hogan but that's the feeling I have on pitch shots.

Neither of those posts make me think that you're actually pitching the golf ball. A shaft leaning excessively far forward (the shaft still leans forward in the "TST" pitching style, perhaps not as much in the flop shots) is unlikely to "engage the bounce" very much - it's closer to a leading edge shot, which would be a chip per my definitions.

tl;dr version - If you hold off the shaft passing the hands like you say, you're not hitting a "pitch."

And it's fine to have a different definition of "pitch" - but you have to be honest about accepting our definition too.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Ah nope I'm not talking about Phil's method. "Hit and hold" for me is hinging the club back and retaining the bulk of my right flying wedge but still allowing the clubhead to fire into ball but not letting it pass the hands at all. e.g. mainly pivot-driven.

I wasn't saying TST pitching is flipping by the way as there's a marked difference between a flip and allowing the club head to overtake the hands after the ball has left the face. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

All the lag is dumped into the back of the ball, hence why it's a hit and hold for me; I just stop the clubhead from passing the hands that's all. :)

Clearly I'm no Hogan but that's the feeling I have on pitch shots.

Neither of those posts make me think that you're actually pitching the golf ball. A shaft leaning excessively far forward (the shaft still leans forward in the "TST" pitching style, perhaps not as much in the flop shots) is unlikely to "engage the bounce" very much - it's closer to a leading edge shot, which would be a chip per my definitions.

tl;dr version - If you hold off the shaft passing the hands like you say, you're not hitting a "pitch."

And it's fine to have a different definition of "pitch" - but you have to be honest about accepting our definition too.

As so it's a definition issue; gotcha. Until the description above I had no idea what the actual definition of a pitch or chip is for TST'ers other than the videos on the Edel wedge thread.

When I say "chip" for me it's any shot I play which stays more or less below head height and is quite a short shot, e.g. 30y or so and in, normally greenside.
"pitch" to me is a shot which flies over head height and is anything from 100y or so and in.

Both of those I try to keep my hands ahead of the clubhead throughout; the main difference in terms of shot execution is the hinging of the club and the amount of "hit" on the ball to launch it skyward.

e.g. if I was 20y off the green behind a staked tree and needed to fire the ball up over it I'd class it as a "pitch" whereas if there was no need to get the ball up high, e.g. over a bunker it'd be a "chip".