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professor71

Red stakes

25 posts in this topic

Hi. Whilst playing yesterday we played a par 4 which has a pathway in front of the tee box leading to 2 dams, with the fairway on the right of them. One player pulled his tee shot left over the pathway and it last crossed the hazard on a finger of ground which extrudes into the first dam. The dam is demarcated with red stakes on either side. The finger of ground had its own stakes and doesn't form part of the hazard. The player dropped on the right parallel and not nearer the hole. Should he have dropped on the left on the finger of ground where his ball last crossed the hazard?
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It's  difficult to tell from your description just what the hole looks like, so I find it hard to give a ruling.  If you could provide a photo (like from Google Earth or the like) or a sketch, it would be helpful.  I'm having trouble visualizing the situation.

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When you say 'dam' do you mean the stretch of water or the land barrier keeping the water in?

on a finger of ground which extrudes into the first dam.

This suggests the 'dam' is water.

Dam - definition

1.

a. A barrier constructed across a waterway to control the flow or raise the level of water.
b. A body of water controlled by such a barrier.

Does this make any sense?

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I can't picture it either. We need a sketch......
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Hi guys Thanks for the response. I hav attached a pic which shows the hole. The yellow arrows show the flight of the ball, pulled left into the dam. The Red shows the stakes around the finger of ground. The blue shows the intended fairway. The purple shows where the player dropped from. Should he not have dropped from the finger of ground as it is not in the hazard and had red stakes on either side?
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Is there any way to send the pic to an email address? I am unable to embed the pic
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Is there any way to send the pic to an email address? I am unable to embed the pic

Click the picture icon to upload and embed the image. This works even from mobile phones.

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I have tried that. Doesn't allow me to.
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Are you clicking the little icon that shows a couple of mountains towards the right? If you hover over it, it says 'Insert Image'.

Then click 'upload image' and select the file you want to upload.

What type of file are you trying to upload?

To what extent does my diagram above match?

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Yellow arrow is the line of ball, yellow dot is the ball in WH and green dot the dropped ball? If picture is exact then I would say he dropped wrong as that point is not the opposite side of WH. If the ball had went into WH on the right side of finger then the drop would have been good.

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As there appears to be access to the peninsular from just before the green mark, the margin at the end of the finger should not have been marked red as it is possible to drop on that side on a line to the hole.

However, as it is marked so, it depends on exactly where the ball last crossed the margin. Dropping at a point on the other side equidistant means that there mustn't be land between one side and the other. As luu5 says, crossing to the south of the apex would be ok. North of the apex would mean dropping way to the left.

See http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#26-1/14

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Hi. Whilst playing yesterday we played a par 4 which has a pathway in front of the tee box leading to 2 dams, with the fairway on the right of them. One player pulled his tee shot left over the pathway and it last crossed the hazard on a finger of ground which extrudes into the first dam. The dam is demarcated with red stakes on either side. The finger of ground had its own stakes and doesn't form part of the hazard. The player dropped on the right parallel and not nearer the hole. Should he have dropped on the left on the finger of ground where his ball last crossed the hazard?

You said "purple", but I'm guessing the green spot is where he dropped?

I'm guessing that he intended to proceed under 26-1c(ii).  I'm going to have to defer final judgment to the rules officials on the site, but it looks to me that the same lateral hazard includes both the pond and the stream paralleling the fairway.   Dropping where you think he should have would have been the obvious option, but it looks to me that he was also correct in exercising the option to drop on the opposite margin of the hazard.

26-1 . Relief for Ball in Water Hazard

It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard . In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard , but not found, is in the hazard , the player must proceed under Rule 27-1 .

If a ball is found in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5 ); or

b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard , keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or

c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard , drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole .

Decision 26-1/14 seems to support that, in that he in fact, moved his ball across the water to make his drop.....

@Fourputt , @Rulesman , @Dormie1360 , et.al.?

26-1/14

Clarification of "Opposite Margin" in Rule 26-1c(ii)

Q.Please clarify the words "opposite margin" in Rule 26-1c . With regard to the diagram, "X1" indicates where a ball in the hazard last crossed the hazard margin. May the player drop a ball within two club-lengths of "Y1"? And, may a player whose ball last crossed the hazard margin at "X2" drop a ball within two club-lengths of "Y2," and so on?

A.With respect to "X1," "Y1" is "a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole." Accordingly, the player would be entitled to drop a ball within two club-lengths of "Y1."

The same applies in the cases of "X3"-"Y3" and "X4"-"Y4," but not in the case of "X2"-"Y2." A "point on the opposite margin" is a point across the hazard from "the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the hazard."

"Y2" is not across the hazard from "X2" because an imaginary straight line from "X2" to "Y2" crosses land outside the hazard.

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Green dot spot looks to me like "a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole."

Not if the ball last crossed the margin at the point where the yellow arrow is.  Side opposite from that point is across the pond farther left.  In order for the green spot to be valid, the ball would have to have last crossed to the right of the point of the peninsula.  It's only in that case that the opposite side would be to the right across the finger of water toward the fairway.  David posted the diagram from decision 26-1/14 which shows the treatment for this situation.  He doesn't get to cross the peninsula and 2 more hazard boundaries to proceed under this rule.  He either drops on the peninsula 2 clublengths from where the ball crossed, or directly across the hazard at a point equidistant from the hole.  Directly across depends on which side of the peninsula the ball crossed to enter the hazard.

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Thanks guys for the feedback. The fact that the finger of ground is however not part of the hazard and has red stakes on all sides of it. The ball did not cross to the right side of the stream at all. I think that he should have dropped on the finger of ground and not on the right of the hazard as his point of entry was over the finger of ground. The players argument was that as it is the same hazard and the markers are red he could drop on the right.
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Not if the ball last crossed the margin at the point where the yellow arrow is.  Side opposite from that point is across the pond farther left.  In order for the green spot to be valid, the ball would have to have last crossed to the right of the point of the peninsula.  It's only in that case that the opposite side would be to the right across the finger of water toward the fairway.  David posted the diagram from decision 26-1/14 which shows the treatment for this situation.  He doesn't get to cross the peninsula and 2 more hazard boundaries to proceed under this rule.  He either drops on the peninsula 2 clublengths from where the ball crossed, or directly across the hazard at a point equidistant from the hole.  Directly across depends on which side of the peninsula the ball crossed to enter the hazard.

Ahhhhhh, the extra hazard boundry is the difference, even though it's the same hazard.  That makes sense.....  If he had crossed to right of the peninsula, he'd have had the fairway side as an option, right?

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