My Swing (Rap87)

[rap87]

I've been Playing Golf for: 3 months

My current handicap index or average score is:  Over 100

My typical ball flight is:  Straight or Slight Draw

The shot I hate or the "miss" I'm trying to reduce/eliminate is:  Straight Left

Hey guys,  I'd love some advice.  I'm currently employing Shawn Clement's WIG style of learning, or trying to emulate the classic swing of Bobby Jones, Jack Nichlaus or say Tom Watson.  My issue at first was swaying which I think I have solved, but I'm currently noticing I believe a bit of a chicken wing on my swings even with contact feels great, distance is great etc.  I'm not quite sure how to fix it.  Also  I wanted to double check my right leg was correct as Shawn seems to be able to get his straighter than I do on mine.  Thanks so much for any advice!

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Videos:

4 Iron

[rap87]

Here are some drill shots I was able to do that was recommended from WIG to fix swaying, if it helps in any  analysis:

Drills with no ball

1 Leg Drill w/Ball

[saevel25]

SWING SLOWER!!!

Do the drills proper with slow methodical movements, you will progress much faster and better.

Also, your head should not be moving around all over the place. I would work on the "Key" first before trying any drills that help with swing plane. Its tough to dial in a proper swing path into the ball when the focal point of all your perception of where the golf ball is during the swing is moving around (eyes).

[rap87]

I appreciate the response, however I am a bit confused with the slower swing part in a sense.  I'm thinking if I try to swing slower I'm going to start using my muscles to control the swing by trying to be methodical.  At least with my backswing I'm just turning my hips forward and then tossing it up into my backswing hoping to let gravity take care of the rest...where I am accelerating is on the downswing to help it through, but only after i feel the slight pause and then it descending on its own...would you suggest trying to make an effort to say hit a 7 iron only 100 yards...that would take some pull out of the swing while still letting gravity do it, however I'm not sure what this is addressing as far as the chicken wing.

*My thinking atm is the chicken swing is being caused by subconsciously making the ball my target and I need to probably practice throwing a golf club to a target a few times to get the real feel, but unsure.

As far as my head moving, are you saying it's doing that in the swing or in the drill?  My head goes up from what I can tell but doesn't go left and right, I'm attributing that to the full hip turn?

[rap87]

This is the guy I've been trying to learn the basics from (slow mo of his swing at 4:30 :

Not trying to challenge your or anything, you obviously have quite the handicap and are much more skilled than I am at the moment, just trying to tell you what I've been trying to emulate.  My issue first was "swaying" left to right in the swing, but it was my understanding from him some up and down head movement is fine but not any sway.  I am noticing though his right leg gets much straight than mine though...haven't figured out how to get that exact look yet..

[saevel25]

I guess for your drills there, slow isn't really an issue. Sorry about that. Usually for most drills, you'd want to move about half speed to really what you are doing.

About your swing, the only comments I can make is that the ball position is to far back for a 4 iron. It should be just to inside of were your hands are at in the video if you pause it at address.

Next time you take a video do a down the line view. I can't tell what is going on in your swing from a face-on only. I would recommend watching that ball position. Also you might want to consider flaring your feet out more, at least 20 degrees on the front foot. This is a guess, but I think you are arching your lower back. I can't tell from the view. I'd try to not do that, it inhibits your ability to turn the hips properly. It kinda looks like that is happening with that little lateral side motion that happens in the swing when the front foot comes off the ground there.

[rap87]

Thanks for the reply, I'll get a down the line view up soon.

[iacas]

Gravity doesn't play a significant role in any full golf swing.

[rap87]

I can see as a beginner the choice of one instructor is going to be key, he spends most of his video talking about gravity and the swing, his qualifications being pga player and plays scratch golf both left and right handed.

I'm not sure if its all just mental aides to get a swing whether or not its true or not but seems not everyone has the exact same idea of what the swing is.  I know there is a difference in modern swing vs classic swing but I figured fundamentals would be pretty set.  In any case, I can see this could be quite confusing as a beginner with different ideas/systems trying to advise going in different directions.

[saevel25]

Depends on what the definition of fundamentals are. If you are talking grip, stance, posture, that is not a fundamental because every golfer is different. Now if your talking about a steady head, weight forward at impact, flat left wrist at impact, then those fundamentals hold true. Now how does gravity play in on this, not much. You are talking about a 300-400 gram golf club. Wedges being the heaviest. So you got about 0.75lb to 1lb golf club. Lighter than you think really right? Gravity is not acting much at all on the club. So what is the primary factor in the golf swing, the human body.

[rap87]

Can we say there is some sort of "gravity" move from the top of the backswing to the hitting area?  I think this seems to be the concept Shawn and even Miller here is talking about but maybe it isn't as "gravity" as scientific gravity is?  I'm wondering if I'm trying to "kill it" too soon from the top and that's the chicken wing reason but will get that on the line video when I can here.

[iacas]

Can we say there is some sort of "gravity" move from the top of the backswing to the hitting area?

No.

But let me expand on that… As a feeling then sure, and if you have good luck with it, go for it. Fred Couples for example has said that he's swinging as hard as he can from the top. It looks smooth because he pauses at the top, and everything kind of "gathers" together, but his muscles are working HARD.

For example, my backswing improved when I didn't feel like my arms were doing much of anything, but they still are. My right elbow still bends, my left arm still moves across my chest a little, etc. But it doesn't feel like they're doing anything to me (because previously they did too much). So again if the feeling of "just gravity" works for you, then great. But that's not the same as saying "gravity drops your clubhead to the ball" or whatever.

BTW, I love how Miller talks about Key #2 in Freddie's driver swing at the end. :)

[rap87]

I've been Playing Golf for: 7 Months

My current handicap index or average score is: 92

My typical ball flight is: Straight Fade (Out to In)

The shot I hate or the "miss" I'm trying to reduce/eliminate is: Pull, I want to create a proper In to Out or In to In Draw, i.e. Straight Draw or Push  Draw.

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Hey guys,

I've been playing for about 7 months or so, I first started to learn the fundamentals via Shawn Clement's WIG and it was very helpful in the beginning.  He seems to be a great teacher if you want a more "feel" based approach and would like a "two plane swing".  However, I noticed after playing long enough that I started to not have much problem with actual contact that I couldn't hit a draw.  After starting to analyze my own swing and talking to a few pros I found out I had an Over the Top motion swing.  I've been told that my ball flight is so repeatable with it I could easily shoot in the 80s or 70s with it if I got my short game and putting in order...but I don't want to settle with an "unsound" swing I want to have a fundamentally sound swing...If it also helps to notice how repeatable I am with this swing I'm using Mizuno MP 67s as my first set of clubs...people act like blades are hard to deal with, but I haven't found them hard to hit at all.  I usually get 155/160 out of the 7.  In any case, might be useless or useful info, I'm not sure.

That being the case, in my search to get a sound swing, I've tried a lot of things to fix it and recently watched Jim Hardy's Plane Truth and it seemed to help clear up different swing tips/fundamentals.  I thought I would try to convert to the One Plane Method as I heard it wasn't as dependent on  timing as the traditional 2 plane swing and you could get your shoulders moving really early.  I thought my bad timing and lack of drop move on the 2 Plane was what was really hurting my swing path and this might help.  However, as you can see below in the video and the broken down shot by shot lines there is still an over the top.

My hope is if anyone could help provide some insight in what might have helped you as a One Plane Swinger or perhaps even in general get the feel of getting the correct motion of the downswing....  The range pro I know says I need to get my lower body going first, but I have been feeling like I have and really try to keep the arms passive but alas I still have the issue.  So I don't know the right "visual" or "feel" to go for even though I've tried a bunch...

Thanks so much.  Video was shot today when I tried to get my hands in closer.  One Plane Swing Sequence was done yesterday, and the other Swing Sequence was what I wound up with 2 or 3 months into the sport.  I'm currently at about 7 months into it.

Again, thanks a lot.  I'm looking locally for some lessons too, but I just haven't found anyone I'm "trusting" yet, although this guy isn't looking back, but I'm not sure he'll be affordable :).  Unfortunately, also nobody is near me out of the "Hardy" school either...

http://www.butchliebler.com/?page_id=29

Videos:

6 Shots from 2 Angles.  (6 Iron)

Old Style 3 Months Ago, More "Two Plane, WIG/Clement, Style"

[mvmac]

Good video for you to check out. You need to get the pivot centered. You'll feel less rotation and more of the left side bend. Explained here

[rap87]

Thanks very much for the reply @mvmac . Just so I have my understanding correct to know "why" I'm doing this.  Having a centered/steady head will allow me to see the golf ball more clearly throughout the swing allowing for my body/natural instincts to hit the ball more solidly?  Also I'm assuming if you stay more centered "getting over to your left side" would be easier?  As far as helping the OTT how does this work?  Is just the simple fact that the weight shift is easier would this fix all of that?

Lastly, I did some searching on the forums on the topic and found a few tips/videos.  Would these apply as well:

Push off from your right foot to your left side to start downswing.

Take it back more in an loopty loop fashion outside to in on the backswing to downswing?  Not sure if this is more of a two plane thing as Hardy seems to recommend a more inside takeaway for One Plane.

Lastly, would setting this up help, also probably in the same thought process as this video?

[mvmac]

Thanks very much for the reply @mvmac . Just so I have my understanding correct to know "why" I'm doing this.  Having a centered/steady head will allow me to see the golf ball more clearly throughout the swing allowing for my body/natural instincts to hit the ball more solidly?  Also I'm assuming if you stay more centered "getting over to your left side" would be easier?  As far as helping the OTT how does this work?  Is just the simple fact that the weight shift is easier would this fix all of that?

Yes a steady head helps you see the ball better, makes it easier to get the weight forward on the downswing. Basically the less to and fro motion of the head allows for more consistent contact because less compensations have to be made.

It will help the OTT because your shoulders and hips turn too shallow, too level to the ground on the backswing. The OTT is an effect of this. The focus isn't really on the head, it's how the body needs to work in order for the head to be steady.

Lastly, I did some searching on the forums on the topic and found a few tips/videos.  Would these apply as well:

Push off from your right foot to your left side to start downswing.

Lastly, would setting this up help, also probably in the same thought process as this video?

You don't really "push" off your right side on the downswing, the transfer is done more with the core, hips and lead leg.

I would stick with Key #1 drills for now

[rap87]

Thanks again @mvmac I will focus on this tonight at the range.  Luckily I have an unlimited range membership so I'm out there 5 days a week in the min.  I'll be able to put this drill to work ASAP.  I'll stick with just trying to keep my head from moving backwards.  I think I didn't resist that as much because my range pro acted like if I did I'd get a reverse pivot.  But what your saying checks out with Hardy.  Hardy had mentioned in a One Plane Swing you really want to stay centered, but it was "permissible" in a two plane to get some too and fro.  Since I want a One Plane, I think what your saying checks out exactly.

I'll post the results as soon as I can.  I am curious about those swing path drills, it appeared that fixed those Out to In Swings up real fast.  I definitely have that very playable left to right swing but its as that pro says Out to In.  Was crazy how simple it looked for him to go go over and in and see that ball finally start right :).

[rap87]

I've been Playing Golf for: 7 months

My current handicap index or average score is: 90s High 80s

My typical ball flight is: Now a Draw or Push

The shot I hate or the "miss" I'm trying to reduce/eliminate is: Pulls of any kind.

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I posted awhile back and got some great tips and finally had my first lessons with a guy that has played on both the PGA and Senior PGA tour and who has also been teaching for years.  He liked my backswing actions but knew I had the wrong conception of the downswing so we did:

Address:

Strong Grip to encourage release feeling, Ball Back in Stance, Hands Slightly Forward.

Block Practice, 3 balls 1 swing though, next cycle 3 balls 2 swing thoughts.

1st Swing Thought, Rotate Forearms (Hit a Hook)

2nd Swing Thought, Slide to Left (Hit a Hook that starts less to the left)

3rd Swing Thought,  Drop Arms (Hit a Draw or a Push)

Been very slow deliberate practice and finally I have removed any sort of Out to In Swing or Fade/Slice Shape at all.  Had the Lesson about 5 days ago.  The Arm Drop is the weirdest move to me at the moment but I am very happy with the lines and NEW ball flight I'm seeing.  What do you guys think?  I'm hoping it starts to look smoother and less loopy the more this gets comfortable...but like I said lesson was only 5 days ago and before I had never seen a proper Draw or hit a Push in my life...

Videos:

Versus Old Swing: