• Announcements

    • iacas

      Create a Signature!   02/05/2016

      Everyone, go here and edit your signature this week: http://thesandtrap.com/settings/signature/.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
amac

First lesson of the new year and I'm all screwed up!

18 posts in this topic

Sticking with my 2014 goals, I had my first lesson of 2014 with a new pro at my course.  This is guy is a top 50 of the top 100 teaching pros as published in the latest Golf Digest magazine.  I figured he had to know what he was doing, right?

After the pleasantries and telling him about my limited golf background, past teachers and personal goals, I gave him three swings recorded on Track Man and then it began.  Bad turn.  Bad shoulders.  Bad plane.  Bad angle of attack.  Bad, bad, bad.  Man, he broke me down and shattered my image of my golf swing.  I shot 79 last weekend and this pro was breaking me down like a beginner.  Apparently, I've developed my own swing mechanisms to compensate for my badness!  And I thought I was getting better. :doh:

So, I went into this lesson looking for and expecting some fine tuning and I came out with a whole new swing. :bugout: The new move may be familiar to many here, but it's the opposite of what I've been doing and thinking is the right thing.  The only thing he didn't change was my address and takeaway.  After that, oh boy.  First, the move left.  He emphasized the lateral hip move to the left while staying CLOSED.  Additionally, I had to get my left shoulder lower than my right.  My first move left was to drop my right shoulder and elbow - moving towards the slot.  Not anymore.  This idea wasn't hard to accept, but the synchronization of my swing has to adjust.

As I make this move left, I'm now supposed to get my hands further from my body - create a wider arc.  So, somehow, the hands begin to move while I shift down and left, keeping my hips and shoulder closed to my target (pointing somewhat backwards).  My arms and shoulders want to move together, not anymore!?  I don't understand this at all and have no idea how to incorporate this into my swing.  I will definitely be looking for my info on this move and how to install this into my swing.  It's on the back burner for now.

Then, as I make the final approach and turn towards the ball, I am supposed to fire up and away?  Hit the wall.  Spin out.  Thrust toward the ball/target, but stop moving forward/down the target line. Apparently, my swing before yesterday continued too far forward and left and thus zapped my energy/swing speed.  Idea is slinging a club down the range with the left hand.  Spin away, not down the line to create speed.  Makes sense, but it's so different from what I've been doing.  I spent a couple hours after my round today practicing this move.  I placed a bag stand next to my left leg and made swings consciously not hitting the stand.  It seemed to help ingrain the idea.

He called me a tugger.  My arms stayed close to the body and followed the shoulders.  I thought the shoulders turn and the arms follow?  If the arms are moving, shouldn't the shoulders also be moving?  According to this pro, I need to learn to allow my arms to swing more freely.  All of this is going to take some getting used to.

I took these new swing thoughts to the course today to play with my regular group.  I warmed up great.  Made a routine par on 1, then all hell broke loose.  I went on to shoot 90. :cry: Needless to say, I had a few things on my mind with every swing.  As mentioned, I spent a couple of hours after my round working on the new swing moves and began to flush everything.  I will return tomorrow and work some more.  Anyone else feel as though lessons just screw everything up?

I'm curious to hear from others that are familiar with the swing moves noted above.  If you can elaborate on the concepts, I'd like to hear.  Thanks and have a great 2014 golf season.

amac

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Want to get rid of this advertisement? Sign up (or log in) today! It's free!

Making swing changes take time. I would recommend working on one thing at a time. Sounds like you are trying to work on everything
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Sticking with my 2014 goals, I had my first lesson of 2014 with a new pro at my course.  This is guy is a top 50 of the top 100 teaching pros as published in the latest Golf Digest magazine.  I figured he had to know what he was doing, right?

After the pleasantries and telling him about my limited golf background, past teachers and personal goals, I gave him three swings recorded on Track Man and then it began.  Bad turn.  Bad shoulders.  Bad plane.  Bad angle of attack.  Bad, bad, bad.  Man, he broke me down and shattered my image of my golf swing.  I shot 79 last weekend and this pro was breaking me down like a beginner.  Apparently, I've developed my own swing mechanisms to compensate for my badness!  And I thought I was getting better.

So, I went into this lesson looking for and expecting some fine tuning and I came out with a whole new swing.    The new move may be familiar to many here, but it's the opposite of what I've been doing and thinking is the right thing.  The only thing he didn't change was my address and takeaway.  After that, oh boy.  First, the move left.  He emphasized the lateral hip move to the left while staying CLOSED.  Additionally, I had to get my left shoulder lower than my right.  My first move left was to drop my right shoulder and elbow - moving towards the slot.  Not anymore.  This idea wasn't hard to accept, but the synchronization of my swing has to adjust.

As I make this move left, I'm now supposed to get my hands further from my body - create a wider arc.  So, somehow, the hands begin to move while I shift down and left, keeping my hips and shoulder closed to my target (pointing somewhat backwards).  My arms and shoulders want to move together, not anymore!?  I don't understand this at all and have no idea how to incorporate this into my swing.  I will definitely be looking for my info on this move and how to install this into my swing.  It's on the back burner for now.

Then, as I make the final approach and turn towards the ball, I am supposed to fire up and away?  Hit the wall.  Spin out.  Thrust toward the ball/target, but stop moving forward/down the target line. Apparently, my swing before yesterday continued too far forward and left and thus zapped my energy/swing speed.  Idea is slinging a club down the range with the left hand.  Spin away, not down the line to create speed.  Makes sense, but it's so different from what I've been doing.  I spent a couple hours after my round today practicing this move.  I placed a bag stand next to my left leg and made swings consciously not hitting the stand.  It seemed to help ingrain the idea.

He called me a tugger.  My arms stayed close to the body and followed the shoulders.  I thought the shoulders turn and the arms follow?  If the arms are moving, shouldn't the shoulders also be moving?  According to this pro, I need to learn to allow my arms to swing more freely.  All of this is going to take some getting used to.

I took these new swing thoughts to the course today to play with my regular group.  I warmed up great.  Made a routine par on 1, then all hell broke loose.  I went on to shoot 90.    Needless to say, I had a few things on my mind with every swing.  As mentioned, I spent a couple of hours after my round working on the new swing moves and began to flush everything.  I will return tomorrow and work some more.  Anyone else feel as though lessons just screw everything up?

I'm curious to hear from others that are familiar with the swing moves noted above.  If you can elaborate on the concepts, I'd like to hear.  Thanks and have a great 2014 golf season.

amac

Agree with @jclark on that one. I don't care if the guy is a top 10 instructor. He shouldn't be overloading you like that. That is absurd.

Pick something, master it then move on.

Also check out the 5 keys videos here. They are a lot easier to understand than what that instructor was saying.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

I certainly agree with the one thing at a time suggestions. I don't know what sort of conversation you had with this pro before you got started, but it sounds like he was cataloging issues that he felt like needed work. I am amazed a highly rated instructor would weigh a student down with that many suggested changes in one session though. Are you, perhaps, in a resort area where he gets a lot of students he will only ever see once and who are expecting that kind of "all in one" lesson? Also, given he is highly rated, I presume he charges a premium price. Perhaps he's a bit self conscious about that and trying hard to give you your money's worth? My suggestion, if you plan to continue with this pro, would be to have a heart to heart about information overload and request limiting it to one or at most two changes per session. On a related note, after about every lesson I take with my unranked but pretty good for me pro, I seem to be screwed up for about a week before things get a little better than they had been before the lesson. I'm pretty sure that is natural.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Making swing changes take time. I would recommend working on one thing at a time. Sounds like you are trying to work on everything

Agreed.  I can't believe he threw so much at me at once.  But, the moves work together.  Right now I'm trying to work in the lateral shift with hips and shoulders closed and the follow through.  The arm thing can wait, mainly because I have no idea what he's looking for.

Trying to be patient, but I have my first member golf association match next weekend and really want to have my swing manageable.  Will see.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You said after the round you worked a couple hours and started flushing it again, sounds to me it's working and you need to stop worrying about your scores or even avoid going on the course for a week or so and get this swing more grooved and hopefully bring it to the course in a week or so.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I certainly agree with the one thing at a time suggestions. I don't know what sort of conversation you had with this pro before you got started, but it sounds like he was cataloging issues that he felt like needed work. I am amazed a highly rated instructor would weigh a student down with that many suggested changes in one session though. Are you, perhaps, in a resort area where he gets a lot of students he will only ever see once and who are expecting that kind of "all in one" lesson? Also, given he is highly rated, I presume he charges a premium price. Perhaps he's a bit self conscious about that and trying hard to give you your money's worth? My suggestion, if you plan to continue with this pro, would be to have a heart to heart about information overload and request limiting it to one or at most two changes per session.

On a related note, after about every lesson I take with my unranked but pretty good for me pro, I seem to be screwed up for about a week before things get a little better than they had been before the lesson. I'm pretty sure that is natural.

Good advice.  I'm not at a resort club.  It's English Turn in New Orleans, LA.  As a club member, the lesson's run $100 per hour.  A pretty good deal for a highly rated teaching pro.  He actually spent closer to 1-1/2 hours with me.  And please don't think I was being snooty giving his credentials.  I was just laying out the situation.  I've taken plenty of lessons from club pro's that know how to swing the club.  Personally, I'm looking for a teacher I can trust and connect with.  I gave this guy a try because he is nationally recognized.  Curiosity brought me to him.  The fact that he screwed up my swing is gonna bring me back!  LOL.  FWIW, I did notice huge improvement in the video analysis by the end of my session.  I believe he will get me on the right track.

Thanks

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm impressed that you can remember all of that. ;-) But I am curious enough now to watch some of his videos.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thread from a guy who just came back from a lesson, complaining about it.  I don't understand.  Why did you seek out Manzella?  You must have seen plenty of his videos online so you knew his approach. If you don't like what he told you, go to someone else.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't assume he messed up your swing. Changes feel weird and typically don't lead to immediate improved scores. Will take your word for the overwhelming advice he gave. Though it sounds unusual.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

If I may offer a suggestion, you should work on your swing at home, on the range, anywhere other than the golf course. When you're on the course, just use your "natural" swing. It takes time to ingrain changes and make them part of your swing and you're going to question everything you've been taught if you start shooting really poorly. The other thing is simply that a round of golf just doesn't offer enough full swing opportunities to be useful for effective practice on swing mechanics. Think about your swing everywhere else, but when you're on the course, just play golf.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

I've been given similar advice regarding the arms by multiple instructors who know what they're doing - get the arms going from the top, karate chop. I was given drills and did those, lots of slow motion work in front of a mirror - no ball, foam ball, hit mid irons100 yards or less @ slow tempo, throw clubs, etc... Those helped me. Plus I kept re-watching the lesson vids. One of the things that holds me back is my obsession with getting the backswing perfect, ie veering away from main point of instructor's instruction.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

One of the things that holds me back is my obsession with getting the backswing perfect, ie veering away from main point of instructor's instruction.

That's one of my problems too, easily pulled off on tangents, getting better at staying focused now though. I'm glad my instructors prioritize, I couldn't handle the "all at once" approach the OP describes.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

As I make this move left, I'm now supposed to get my hands further from my body - create a wider arc.  So, somehow, the hands begin to move while I shift down and left, keeping my hips and shoulder closed to my target (pointing somewhat backwards).  My arms and shoulders want to move together, not anymore!?  I don't understand this at all and have no idea how to incorporate this into my swing.  I will definitely be looking for my info on this move and how to install this into my swing.  It's on the back burner for now.

Then, as I make the final approach and turn towards the ball, I am supposed to fire up and away?  Hit the wall.  Spin out.  Thrust toward the ball/target, but stop moving forward/down the target line. Apparently, my swing before yesterday continued too far forward and left and thus zapped my energy/swing speed.  Idea is slinging a club down the range with the left hand.  Spin away, not down the line to create speed.  Makes sense, but it's so different from what I've been doing.  I spent a couple hours after my round today practicing this move.  I placed a bag stand next to my left leg and made swings consciously not hitting the stand.  It seemed to help ingrain the idea.

He called me a tugger.  My arms stayed close to the body and followed the shoulders.  I thought the shoulders turn and the arms follow?  If the arms are moving, shouldn't the shoulders also be moving?  According to this pro, I need to learn to allow my arms to swing more freely.  All of this is going to take some getting used to.

To help you simplify it, Brian told you three things.  As you transfer forward he wants you to stay closed longer while the arms release down and out (this is where the left shoulder staying "down" is important). Also impact/followthrough will feel like a "thrust" upwards.

Making changes is going to feel like a "new swing". It really isn't though. Your current swing produces shots that you want to change, it just makes sense that some of the mechanics have to be adjusted in order to produce different shots.

Here's how you work on it, make a ton of slow swings demonstrating what he told you and when you play, just play. Don't try to implement the mechanical changes, do that on the range or at home.

Here's a video I did to help the arms feel, at least I think this is what you're describing

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Another thread from a guy who just came back from a lesson, complaining about it.  I don't understand.  Why did you seek out Manzella?  You must have seen plenty of his videos online so you knew his approach. If you don't like what he told you, go to someone else.

Not really complaining. Just expressing my frustrations. I honestly thought my swing was more sound than Brian. I had a lesson about 3 months ago with another guy using track man. He didn't go after the same things as Brian. Brian knows what's going on. I fully trust his teachings and will be back for more.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mvmac, you are spot on. I will spend more time in front of a mirror rehearsing the arm separation move. Your swing on the left reminds of me. Especially the early release and high left shoulder. I had a 2 hour range session this morning working on most of the lessons. It's going to take some time. The move left is easy. Staying closed will take getting used to. The turn and thrust finish is harder than I thought. I've got a bob in my follow through instead of just locking out the left leg. So many things! Thanks for the post.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How's it goin?
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Way better. New move has been easy to adopt. I have a follow up lesson this Friday.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2016 TST Partners

    GAME Golf
    PING Golf
    Golf Evolution
  • Posts

    • 2016 TST Initiative: Forward Tees Tournament
      In Lowest Score Wins, we recommend that golfers play from the forward tees in order to experience "breaking 80" for the first time, or shooting 65, or having more birdie putts than they've ever had, or whatever. This year, in 2016, we're taking it one step farther: we're encouraging everyone here to work with the head pro at your home course (or, if you play multiple courses, the head pro at each of them!) and to set up a serious "Forward Tees Tournament." A Forward Tees Tournament (FTT) will be: FUN! Enlightening Unique Challenging I'll give anyone who creates and/or participates in a FTT this year the special achievement/award seen to the left. Anyone with this award will be entered to win a TST prize to be determined at the end of the year (and I'll do my best to make it a fairly good prize, but that shouldn't be the main reason why anyone should do this). You can play: With or without handicaps. With or without brackets/divisions/flights. Stroke play or match play. 18, 27, 36, 54+ holes. One day, two days, three days. Etc. I think golfers will love playing in this type of tournament. I think it will challenge them to think about how they play and score. I think it will result in faster play, more fun, more birdies, more chances to hit 7-iron into par fives and feel like a Tour player for once, and… lower scores (or higher scores for the dumb players!). So there you have it. What can you do from here? Pledge here in this thread to talk to your head pro. Recruit your buddies and local golfers to play in your event. Work with your head pro to make the event a success. Play in the event! Post here after your tournament has been played to claim your super-exclusive award/achievement! I'm in. I'll be doing this, hopefully at multiple courses this year. Are you?
    • Posting old scores
      I haven't had an official handicap for about 15 years because in the past several I've only been able to play 6-8 times per year. This year I joined a club so that I could play in tournaments and since I need five scores to get a handicap, I entered some scores in GHIN from my last few rounds in 2015 (since I play so rarely, I can remember them). When I was doing this, I forgot to change the date when posting a score from August so it defaulted to today and is now my most recent reported score. GHIN won't let me change the entry but says to "contact my club" to fix it, which seems like a hassle for everyone involved. It's not my lowest score but it's close, so it will probably be included in my handicap calculation for quite a while unless the date is changed. How big of a deal is this?
    • How to eliminate blowup holes
      Another thing is sometimes to 'give up' on par. For example, as a bogey golfer, if I hit a bad tee shot and end up say 220yds from the hold on a par 4 rather than the usual 130yds, play the hole as if bogey is the new par. You've made the hole more difficult for yourself and rather than trying to hit the green with a 3 wood (a green designed to be hit with a mid/short iron), take 2 shots to get on the green and 2 shots to get down. 1 220yd par 4 is an easy hole (could even make birdie (which becomes par and a great save) whereas a 220 yd par 3, not off the tee, is asking for trouble. Not always the best way to play golf (read Lowest Score Wins) but the best way to avoid blowing up.
    • Jack or Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?
      Find it yourself please. I don't think that would provide much insight. Courses, technology… all very different. Too many differences. People who qualify for the Opens rarely actually compete for them. The winners and top finishers almost always come from those who qualify automatically. I'm not. Very few foreign golfers played on the PGA Tour in the 60s. It's been steadily growing - and travel has made it easier, too - through to now. And even now we're starting to see Asian golfers really take over. The only Asian golfer many could name who competed against Nicklaus was Isao Aoki. Maybe Jumbo Ozaki. I'm just talking about the number of golfers. There are a ton more now. I don't care. I realize perhaps your condition forces you to take everything literally, but I wasn't being literal here. The PGA Tour takes the best 150 players or so out of X. As X grows, the amount of separation between those top 150 players narrows. We're in a very narrow phase right now. When Jack was playing, the gap was significantly wider. No. Tiger was quite a bit more dominant and "above" even MORE highly competitive fields. Both halves of that are true: Tiger won by larger margins and against stronger fields. I agree. And I've said similar things. No…? You don't say? (On page 273 of a thread doing just that…)? You seem to be the only person who regards WGCs as weaker fields that offer a "competitive break." It says a lot about how others should consider your opinions on strength of field. You're assuming or haven't read many of my posts in this thread, because I've said several times that I'd put it within a few points of 50/50. Maybe 55/45. Hardly what I'd call "strong." Of course we're both "estimating." Tiger's record, IMO, against significantly stiffer competition, puts him ahead. Not by a lot. Not really. If only 30 players had a realistic chance to win a tournament, adding players beyond that 30th player does little to affect the strength of the field. The WGCs could add 200 club professionals that would never win and… the strength of field would remain exactly the same. Where have I said this? Because even if I did, it doesn't support whatever you're trying to force it into supporting here. The odds of a club pro beating anyone on the PGA Tour these days are slim to none. They were slightly more likely back when fewer "A" players played the PGA Tour… like in the 60s and 70s. A "C" player's game almost never varies enough - not for four days - to beat even 10 or 15 "A" players. Here's an opinion, but one I could probably back up if I cared enough to take the time (I do not): a modern WGC has a stronger field than many (perhaps all) of the majors Nicklaus won. I've said this before, and will say it again here: In Jack's day, there were maybe 10-15 "A" players, 25 "B" players, and the rest were "C" players. Today there are 100+ A players and the rest B players. I'm also going to request, mostly because of the number of times I've had to repeat myself in this thread, that you not quote or respond to me, @natureboy, in this thread. I'm not keen on repeating myself about something that, ultimately, I don't care that much about. It is what it is, their records are what they are, and they could only beat the guys they played against.
    • How to eliminate blowup holes
      Never try to hit through trees, always just get back to the fairway.
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Images

  • Today's Birthdays

    No users celebrating today
  • Blog Entries