Jimmy Walker's (lack of a) Steady Head

[festivus]

If y'all are talking about head movement then to my knowledge Kenny Perry takes the cake for elite players:

If it's early extension (diagnosed via the posterior) then Luke Donald is a pretty good example.

[iacas]

I somewhat disagree, Harmonious. I know there is leeway allowed here. But I've never seen a successful player have this much early extension before. Go find another one who does this as much as Walker does. I dunno if you can (I stand correct though if wrong!).

There are a lot, Constantine. Very few PGA Tour players remain in their "tilts" all the way in the downswing and after impact. "Early extenders" on the PGA Tour is probably a majority. It's not a LOT (even the Luke Donald one is pretty small, but present ).

I simply didn't know it was possible to play this well with this much downswing upward head movement. I thought this was a major, major flaw and it appears I was wrong on that.

It's really not very much. Seriously, an inch or so? Tiger's head moves more (vertically, to/fro ball) than these guys. Tiger does the DOWN more than these guys too, but can usually get back up in time.

I understand that PGA Tour pros need to be handled differently than regular folks for several reasons, but wow... if the instructor has to ignore this flaw in his tour pro, then what do you even suggest to him he should work on or change?

No offense intended here, but why do you keep seeing it as a flaw? The majority of PGA Tour players probably do it a little. We've ADDED a little early extension to some of our students.

It's not a lot, and unless it was causing problems, I likely wouldn't have it in the top five priority pieces, and it may not even ever be a priority piece. EE can add speed, can help shallow the club a little, etc.

Just because it causes problems for your swing (or supposedly does), that doesn't mean it's a fault in everyone's swing.

Sorry, I'm just still amazed he can play this well. I would just be massively confused over how to proceed. It's almost like Butch Harmon is right in how he handles his stable of guys: Just feed them placebos and hope to god they get out of their own way and play well?

@Harmonious , I don't entirely agree with what @JetFan1983 has said here, but Butch Harmon kind of has the reputation for doing this kind of stuff. I'll be the first to admit it works great for PGA Tour players . It reminds me of when Roy MacAvoy is shanking the ball and Cheech has him put his change in his other pocket and stuff.

By and large, Butch Harmon doesn't really make mechanical changes to his students. They pretty much swing how they swing, year in and year out. There are occasional subtle changes, and more often still he'll TELL you that there were changes (like Phil with his left knee years ago, when nothing had measurably changed). Again, this is often a great approach to take with PGA Tour level students, who often just need to THINK they're getting better to build confidence and work on things.

Butch is one of the best "instructors" in the world when you're talking about PGA Tour level talent. I don't know if I'd send an 18-handicapper to him - they often need to work on mechanical things - but there's no denying his success on the PGA Tour. There's also no denying how he achieves that success. It's not by making many mechanical changes.

That's all I think @JetFan1983 was saying. And if not him, that's my official position on Butch: great instructor for PGA Tour level players.

[festivus]

Erik - interesting thought.  Reminds me of one of my favorite sayings:

"coaching isn't about what you say, it's about what you can get your students to do."  Seems Butch is pretty good at the latter, though I have  seen a modest trend of his students with long-term injuries.

[JetFan1983]

If y'all are talking about head movement then to my knowledge Kenny Perry takes the cake for elite players:

Yea, lots of backswing head movement, but on the downswing his head stays really stable.

If it's early extension (diagnosed via the posterior) then Luke Donald is a pretty good example.

Ah ha, wow, I can't believe I never noticed that. Yea, that's really similar to Walker. Good call, festivus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I somewhat disagree, Harmonious. I know there is leeway allowed here. But I've never seen a successful player have this much early extension before. Go find another one who does this as much as Walker does. I dunno if you can (I stand correct though if wrong!).

There are a lot, Constantine. Very few PGA Tour players remain in their "tilts" all the way in the downswing and after impact. "Early extenders" on the PGA Tour is probably a majority. It's not a LOT (even the Luke Donald one is pretty small, but present).

Crap, crap, crap, he used my real name. That usually means I'm in trouble.

I can't believe I never really noticed it until now. Yea, and what I'm noticing as well is that their spines do regain enough flexion in that early downswing, as opposed to say the amateur golfer whose head just flies right off the wall after the transition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I simply didn't know it was possible to play this well with this much downswing upward head movement. I thought this was a major, major flaw and it appears I was wrong on that.

It's really not very much. Seriously, an inch or so? Tiger's head moves more (vertically, to/fro ball) than these guys. Tiger does the DOWN more than these guys too, but can usually get back up in time.

Yea, I always thought downward head movement was fine, and possibly encouraged. I just was not aware that upward movement prior to impact was not only okay, but often something that can be a good thing. It's funny... I thought I knew something about 5SK and yet even key number one wasn't even fully understood by me. With the help of this thread though, my knowledge base is improving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I understand that PGA Tour pros need to be handled differently than regular folks for several reasons, but wow... if the instructor has to ignore this flaw in his tour pro, then what do you even suggest to him he should work on or change?

No offense intended here, but why do you keep seeing it as a flaw? The majority of PGA Tour players probably do it a little. We've ADDED a little early extension to some of our students.

It's not a lot, and unless it was causing problems, I likely wouldn't have it in the top five priority pieces, and it may not even ever be a priority piece. EE can add speed, can help shallow the club a little, etc.

Just because it causes problems for your swing (or supposedly does), that doesn't mean it's a fault in everyone's swing.

Yea, I don't see it as a flaw now after reading these posts.

@Harmonious, I don't entirely agree with what @JetFan1983 has said here, but Butch Harmon kind of has the reputation for doing this kind of stuff. I'll be the first to admit it works great for PGA Tour players. It reminds me of when Roy MacAvoy is shanking the ball and Cheech has him put his change in his other pocket and stuff.

By and large, Butch Harmon doesn't really make mechanical changes to his students. They pretty much swing how they swing, year in and year out. There are occasional subtle changes, and more often still he'll TELL you that there were changes (like Phil with his left knee years ago, when nothing had measurably changed). Again, this is often a great approach to take with PGA Tour level students, who often just need to THINK they're getting better to build confidence and work on things.

Butch is one of the best "instructors" in the world when you're talking about PGA Tour level talent. I don't know if I'd send an 18-handicapper to him - they often need to work on mechanical things - but there's no denying his success on the PGA Tour. There's also no denying how he achieves that success. It's not by making many mechanical changes.

That's all I think @JetFan1983 was saying. And if not him, that's my official position on Butch: great instructor for PGA Tour level players.

Yea, perhaps I was a bit too glib with that Butch Harmon comment. And yea, that's really all I was saying. There's certainly more to coaching a PGA Tour pro than changing his mechanics.

Thanks, Erik.

[mvmac]

Still kinda catching up here after being out of town so I'll just add my thoughts. As we've been talking about, some early extension is "allowed", even encouraged. What you'll notice is that the head doesn't start to come "off the wall" until after A5, important to note IMO

I have a feeling Dave would change very little about Walker's swing

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Yea, perhaps I was a bit too glib with that Butch Harmon comment. And yea, that's really all I was saying. There's certainly more to coaching a PGA Tour pro than changing his mechanics.

Yeah 90% of it is if whether the player enjoys hanging out with his instructor. Seriously, I've listened in on numerous conversations tour players have with their instructors and most of the time they are talking about sports, family, what hotels they're staying at, schedule, stuff like that. Had a really interesting conversation with TJ Yeaton who coaches a couple guys and he'll just pump his players up by telling them how great their clothes look, how fit they look, how great their swings are, how the course really fits their games. Very little swing stuff and he's one of the top swing guys in the world.

The opposite side of the spectrum is Charles Howell with Dana Dahlquist, they get very specific and deep into the swing but Charles thrives on that kind of instruction. Other players just want to talk about SEC football and know where their feet are lined up (not joking). So it's about understanding the player and catering to their needs.

[chgogolfcoach]

Remember also guys that one of the main reasons for a steady head is VISION, focused eyes on the ball, and Jimmy has that in spades. Mac did a big research study on this years ago.

As with regards to Jimmy "early" extension, remember that we all have different body types, we all either need to use either more lateral movements, rotary movements, and will use GRF shear and vertical movements, depending on our body structure, not one thing fits everyone unless you are measured exactly like him, i.e., arm lengths, wing span vs. height, hip speed, etc.

[freedrop]

I think there is too much focus on steady head.It's the solid right knee and right hip turn/coil that are key.This is what all pros have in common,not the head movement.

[freedrop]

From the time she grips it to rips it is 5 secs...head movement is about half a head to her right.What's so hard about that?

[iacas]

I think there is too much focus on steady head.It's the solid right knee and right hip turn/coil that are key.This is what all pros have in common,not the head movement.

You don't understand the Key. It includes the turn, the knees, the hips, etc.

[saevel25]

I think there is too much focus on steady head.It's the solid right knee and right hip turn/coil that are key.This is what all pros have in common,not the head movement.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55080/myth-of-maintaining-address-flexion-in-the-rear-knee, Nope you are wrong. Solid right knee is a problem, its a problem for anyone who wants to swing the club well.

How about you stop rehashing the same myth BS and actually learn something?

From the time she grips it to rips it is 5 secs...head movement is about half a head to her right.What's so hard about that?

Nope she has a steady head. Her head doesn't move that much as you say. I think you have an issue with what you see in videos. The head moves about 1-2 inches just before impact, but that isn't an issue. Look at Annika, her head is rotating up to see the trajectory before she makes contact. At this point in the swing it doesn't matter, the club can't be deviated from its path.

[freedrop]

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55080/myth-of-maintaining-address-flexion-in-the-rear-knee, Nope you are wrong. Solid right knee is a problem, its a problem for anyone who wants to swing the club well.

saevel125......I purposely said solid right knee and not flexed focusing on the need to keep the right knee from swaying ,this is what I meant.

[saevel25]

saevel125......I purposely said solid right knee and not flexed focusing on the need to keep the right knee from swaying ,this is what I meant.

Yet a solid right knee as you said is visually saying don't let it move. Got to be careful with how you phrase things to golfers because of how they will visualize it. Just because you say solid, doesn't mean its bringing the same emphasis that you are thinking.  Here's the thing, you need a proper hip turn to have a steady head. So that key already includes what you are talking about.

[freedrop]

Yet a solid right knee as you said is visually saying don't let it move. Got to be careful with how you phrase things to golfers because of how they will visualize it. Just because you say solid, doesn't mean its bringing the same emphasis that you are thinking.  Here's the thing, you need a proper hip turn to have a steady head. So that key already includes what you are talking about.

We agree the knee should not sway.

[saevel25]

We agree the knee should not sway.

I don't get by what you mean sway? Honestly I never see it happen. So I would say that it isn't something to worry about. Now, the right hip should not sway to the right. The hip goes back and up (rotates on an incline). So, that is better to say. The knee is a joint between the immobile feet with the mobile hips. They don't have much lateral muscle structure to promote any movement. I mean if you stick your leg out and try to move the knee right and left all you are going to do is rotate it because your moving the hip joint. So honestly in a good constructive discussion here. The knees don't do anything but react to the the hips and provide support.

So I would say, yes that the pros have a proper hip turn which promotes the right knee to loose flex in the backswing. I would not say that the knee sways because it doesn't do much but support the loading of the golf swing. So you really never control the knees.

[freedrop]

I don't get by what you mean sway? Honestly I never see it happen. So I would say that it isn't something to worry about. Now, the right hip should not sway to the right. The hip goes back and up (rotates on an incline). So, that is better to say. The knee is a joint between the immobile feet with the mobile hips. They don't have much lateral muscle structure to promote any movement. I mean if you stick your leg out and try to move the knee right and left all you are going to do is rotate it because your moving the hip joint. So honestly in a good constructive discussion here. The knees don't do anything but react to the the hips and provide support.

So I would say, yes that the pros have a proper hip turn which promotes the right knee to loose flex in the backswing. I would not say that the knee sways because it doesn't do much but support the loading of the golf swing. So you really never control the knees.

I believe Hogan talks about the right knee and not letting it move laterally.

[iacas]

I believe Hogan talks about the right knee and not letting it move laterally.

A right knee moving laterally would tend to indicate that the hips have moved significantly laterally.

So on that, we'd probably agree it's generally not a good thing.

But to echo what @saevel25 said, words are important, and "solid" might say different things to different people.

[festivus]

I don't get by what you mean sway? Honestly I never see it happen. So I would say that it isn't something to worry about. Now, the right hip should not sway to the right. The hip goes back and up (rotates on an incline). So, that is better to say. The knee is a joint between the immobile feet with the mobile hips. They don't have much lateral muscle structure to promote any movement. I mean if you stick your leg out and try to move the knee right and left all you are going to do is rotate it because your moving the hip joint. So honestly in a good constructive discussion here. The knees don't do anything but react to the the hips and provide support.

So I would say, yes that the pros have a proper hip turn which promotes the right knee to loose flex in the backswing. I would not say that the knee sways because it doesn't do much but support the loading of the golf swing. So you really never control the knees.

Just to clarify, and I agree on the knee essentially being a slave to the ankle and hip:

the knee has a ton of soft tissue structure to stop lateral movement.  I agree on initiating movement, the ITB and TFL chain aren't too hot with that.  The only reason I bring this up is deceleration is at least as important as acceleration.  When we're talking stable (not sure if that's what is being mis-stated as solid or not), deceleration rules.