How difficult are PGA Tour course setups?

[saevel25]

I watch them play everyday on the Golf channel they are not hitting 280 yard 7 irons and 440 yard drives. They make a lot of mistakes and look to me like they are comfortable out there and manage their game well average about 286.00 yards of the tee.

Two decimal place accuracy, nice ;)

It's about 289-290, but close enough.

I think there's plenty scope for making some of the USPGA courses a bit more tasking for the players,when scores like 22-24 under are being posted,surely!

The issue is more that one person can go bonkers. These guys are really really good. Even though they might average around 69-71 in scoring average. They are doing so on courses rated 74-76 with 140-160 slopes. In the end though you can get a guy who averages 70, but goes 63,64,66,69. He just ends up going 72,73,74,70 in a few weeks ;)

There are so many good golfers out there that any number of them can put together a good 4 round stretch that makes these tournaments seem easier in set up.

[David in FL]

The issue is more that one person can go bonkers. These guys are really really good. Even though they might average around 69-71 in scoring average. They are doing so on courses rated 74-76 with 140-160 slopes. In the end though you can get a guy who averages 70, but goes 63,64,66,69. He just ends up going 72,73,74,70 in a few weeks ;)  There are so many good golfers out there that any number of them can put together a good 4 round stretch that makes these tournaments seem easier in set up.

Yep. These guys are STUPID good. All of them. Factor in the handful that just light it up on any given week, just because, and it might be reasonable to think that the courses must not be as difficult as you'd think. The problem is, most of us simply have no perspective, or understanding of just how good they really are.

[saevel25]

Yep. These guys are STUPID good. All of them. Factor in the handful that just light it up on any given week, just because, and it might be reasonable to think that the courses must not be as difficult as you'd think. The problem is, most of us simply have no perspective, or understanding of just how good they really are.

I took TPC Sawgrass's slope and rating for their championship set up and looked at the handicap differential the PGA Tour players would have.

Of all the rounds that week, there was 398 of them with a differential under zero, 93%. That is on a 7200 yard course with a rating of 76.8 and a slope of 155.

50% of them had a round were their differential was -3.5 or better.

If you are an 18 handicap. On this course you'd be expected to break 102 only 20% of the time. A scratch golfer would be expected to break 76-77 only 20% of the time.

They are stupid good.

[kpaulhus]

I took TPC Sawgrass's slope and rating for their championship set up and looked at the handicap differential the PGA Tour players would have.

Of all the rounds that week, there was 398 of them with a differential under zero, 93%. That is on a 7200 yard course with a rating of 76.8 and a slope of 155.

50% of them had a round were their differential was -3.5 or better.

If you are an 18 handicap. On this course you'd be expected to break 102 only 20% of the time. A scratch golfer would be expected to break 76-77 only 20% of the time.

They are stupid good.

I have played TPC Sawgrass from the championship tees and shot 85 as a 5 handicap when I lived in Jacksonville.

In June this year I shot 88 from the tips at Bethpage Black as an 8 handicap.

Now, neither of these courses were set up like when the pros played them, but the distance alone is a killer for most golfers.

[saevel25]

I have played TPC Sawgrass from the championship tees and shot 85 as a 5 handicap when I lived in Jacksonville.

In June this year I shot 88 from the tips at Bethpage Black as an 8 handicap.

Now, neither of these courses were set up like when the pros played them, but the distance alone is a killer for most golfers.

Are you sure you played the tees the tour player's used? When I was there they had the tees used by the PGA players netted off so people didn't hit on them. Maybe they use to allow people to play them. This was 2 years ago when I played. They might have a different policy before that, or since then.

A 7.4 differential on the tips at Bethpage is pretty solid.

TPC you get close to what tour players face because of the way Bermuda grass is set up. Typically Bermuda isn't grown very high because of how nasty it is.

Yea I would not want to face Bethpage Black with 4-5 inches of rough. I believe one hole some players couldn't even reach the fairway.

[colin007]

Yea I would not want to face Bethpage Black with 4-5 inches of rough. I believe one hole some players couldn't even reach the fairway.

true.

[Golfingdad]

Are you sure you played the tees the tour player's used? When I was there they had the tees used by the PGA players netted off so people didn't hit on them. Maybe they use to allow people to play them. This was 2 years ago when I played. They might have a different policy before that, or since then.

A 7.4 differential on the tips at Bethpage is pretty solid.

TPC you get close to what tour players face because of the way Bermuda grass is set up. Typically Bermuda isn't grown very high because of how nasty it is.

Yea I would not want to face Bethpage Black with 4-5 inches of rough. I believe one hole some players couldn't even reach the fairway.

I don't even think that the ratings from the tips are accurate.  Example:  You can play Torrey South from the tips (you need permission) and its like 7700 yards and rated 78 and change.  But other than the distance, everything else is the same set up as it is for anybody playing the white or red or whatever tees.

The rough isn't as long as it likely is for the Farmers, and the greens probably aren't nearly as quick either.  One more thing:  Many years ago I played that course several weeks before the Buick Invitational and I remember that there were painted dashed lines on the fairway, several yards in from the edges of the fairway, and that grass was slightly longer than the grass within the lines.  I believe that they were narrowing all of the fairways solely for the tournament that year.  Whether or not they do that every year, I have no idea, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Considering all of that, and that the ratings for the tees are based on the normal conditions of the course, I think that the ratings under the actual tournament conditions could likely be quite a bit higher.

[saevel25]

I don't even think that the ratings from the tips are accurate.  Example:  You can play Torrey South from the tips (you need permission) and its like 7700 yards and rated 78 and change.  But other than the distance, everything else is the same set up as it is for anybody playing the white or red or whatever tees.

TPC Doesn't look much different from TV than it was in person. That course you really can't modify much.

Also, TPC is already very narrow to being with, and there is a lot of forced carries. So the course plays much farther than it's intended yardage.

[Lastpick]

The pros can read greens which many of of double digit amateurs can't.  I play on the same courses most of the time and don't have to read greens, just putt from previous experience.  Years ago, a group of us went out to the Myrtle Beach area and played some golf from the tips.  We didn't have as much fun as we thought, but it was a good experience.  The next year we moved up to some forward tees and surprise, from the forward tees we were able to reach the fairway bunkers that we not in play the previous year.  If we had to play a different course every week that was set up for PGA tournament conditions, we would not find it enjoyable.

[Golfingdad]

TPC Doesn't look much different from TV than it was in person. That course you really can't modify much.

Also, TPC is already very narrow to being with, and there is a lot of forced carries. So the course plays much farther than it's intended yardage.

Yeah, its definitely going to be a course by course thing.  A place like Harbor Town isn't going to be capable of being any different - because of the trees its always super narrow.  Rough's not changing at Augusta member to pro either.  Same goes for Pinehurst and a whole bunch of other courses.

[kpaulhus]

Are you sure you played the tees the tour player's used? When I was there they had the tees used by the PGA players netted off so people didn't hit on them. Maybe they use to allow people to play them. This was 2 years ago when I played. They might have a different policy before that, or since then.

A 7.4 differential on the tips at Bethpage is pretty solid.

TPC you get close to what tour players face because of the way Bermuda grass is set up. Typically Bermuda isn't grown very high because of how nasty it is.

Yea I would not want to face Bethpage Black with 4-5 inches of rough. I believe one hole some players couldn't even reach the fairway.

I was a member at TPC, so we had some "special" privileges. Lets say I didn't have a caddie and might have tee'd off behind the netted area....

[saevel25]

I was a member at TPC, so we had some "special" privileges. Lets say I didn't have a caddie and might have tee'd off behind the netted area....

Gotcha, Your secret is safe with The Sandtrap ;)

[DaveP043]

Yeah, its definitely going to be a course by course thing.  A place like Harbor Town isn't going to be capable of being any different - because of the trees its always super narrow.  Rough's not changing at Augusta member to pro either.  Same goes for Pinehurst and a whole bunch of other courses.

The rough at Pinehurst will be the same for the average tourist (like me) as for the pros, but the greens they played were MUCH firmer and faster than we'd ever see.  In addition, many of the "pro" tees are 50 to 80 yards back from where the normal "back" tees are.  If you weren't there for the tournament, you might not even be able to figure out where they were at the time.

[Kenny Lee]

I took TPC Sawgrass's slope and rating for their championship set up and looked at the handicap differential the PGA Tour players would have.

Of all the rounds that week, there was 398 of them with a differential under zero, 93%. That is on a 7200 yard course with a rating of 76.8 and a slope of 155.

50% of them had a round were their differential was -3.5 or better.

If you are an 18 handicap. On this course you'd be expected to break 102 only 20% of the time. A scratch golfer would be expected to break 76-77 only 20% of the time.

They are stupid good.

Stupid good, indeed.

In the book Paper Tiger, the author suggests changing the PGA Tour slogan to:

"These guys are good. How good? You have no f'ng idea."