Minimalist Golf Swing

[CarlSpackler]

I don't believe that will be the case Carl! :smartass:   But Tiger did pretty well with a very restricted backswingand a good shoulder turn today!  Actually, that's the whole point.  Kiran's MGS is about pre-setting the basic golfing positions- no big deal just different for people like me who are not Tiger or even you Carl, lol! Kind regards,  Patrick

If this swing can produce more power with less effort, then tour pros could increase their driving distance, no?

[Innercity Mini]

Sorry, but that's bullshit. We don't "like" Kiran? Most people here have never talked to her, let alone met her. I have, and it's not a matter of "like" or "dislike." It's a matter of her being able to (or unable to) explain some things. It's a matter of me making an informed decision on her ideas about the golf swing, given my background in the same as well as the sciences.

Also, we are not dealing with opinions here. We are talking about facts. Please locate the "opinions" and you'll discover that they're few and far between - we are here discussing facts - physics, biomechanics, etc. Fact: you hinged your wrists in your golf swing while MGS says not to.

I'd written this up a day or two ago, but now's as good a time as any to post it. It too discusses facts:

Minimalist Golf Swing Tenets

1. Pre-set right side bend, then maintain it so it is there at impact.

2. Do not load the wrists for better timing (???)

3. Minimal torso turn for reasons yet to be made clear.

4. Arm loads up the chest.

Problems, in order:

1. Right side bend exists in all good golf swings using traditional mechanics. It's most often caused by the head remaining relatively steady while the hips go forward a bit.

2. If this were actually done in a swing you'd find an undeniable loss of power. Possibly this improves timing, but the vast majority of players will not take that tradeoff.

3. More loss of power. Perhaps again more control, but again, they will not take that tradeoff.

4. This happens in the traditional swing as well. I suspect it's exaggerated in MGS to help the player hit out (it helps the hands gain depth), but many will throw their hands out at the ball anyway.

Showing us photos of Ben Hogan doing things doesn't matter. Ben Hogan had a traditional swing. You may as well show us photos of Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson or Bubba Watson, none of whom have much of anything in common with MGS as shown by the creator herself.

Showing us videos where in 30 minutes a student makes one small change (often just closing their shoulders at setup slightly) does not serve as any form of proof of anything. They're still making a "traditional" swing.

Could it be that MGS teaches a traditional swing in a format more easily handled by non-superstars of golf? Could it be that small changes are really important in a golf swing? Could it be you should "live and let live" and not attack different things without really understanding them? "All we are saying...is give peace a chance!"

Your gimpy buddy,

Patrick

[CarlSpackler]

Could it be that MGS teaches a traditional swing in a format more easily handled by non-superstars of golf? Could it be that small changes are really important in a golf swing? Could it be you should "live and let live" and not attack different things without really understanding them? "All we are saying...is give peace a chance!" :banana: Your gimpy buddy, Patrick

I believe that @iacas understands the golf swing VERY well.

[iacas]

But Tiger did pretty well with a very restricted backswing and a good shoulder turn today!

Tiger's backswing was not restricted. He slid his hips, too. BTW, sliding the hips is how good players create secondary axis tilt. You really can't just create it at setup, because to make a full turn, you're gonna have a heck of a time keeping your hips that far forward.

Could it be that MGS teaches a traditional swing

No.

Could it be that small changes are really important in a golf swing?

Nobody's debating that. But they have to be the right changes. I'm pretty sure I've never seen a good player not hinge his wrists, pre-set super closed, make a 45° torso turn, and swing out to the right 20°.

Not even Kiran can do it without flipping the snot out of it.

Could it be you should "live and let live" and not attack different things without really understanding them?"

I understand things pretty well. This is not an attack. I'm showing you evidence and asking you to comment. You cannot, because you called a member here my "butt boy" and did several other blatantly obnoxious, rude, childish things, and you're spending time in the Penalty Box. But that's no matter, really, because you've never responded to the valid questions and criticisms.

[David in FL]

But Tiger did pretty well with a very restricted backswingand a good shoulder turn today....

Patrick, it's silly statements like this that causes people to think that you're a kook. FWIW, if you can keep away from comments like that, it might help you to establish some credibility. Just my .02 worth....

[Hammer 4]

Patrick, it's silly statements like this that causes people to think that you're a kook. FWIW, if you can keep away from comments like that, it might help you to establish some credibility.

Just my .02 worth....

I agree. If you post something you state is Factual, it better be fact, otherwise you will get called out on it. That goes for anyone here, myself included.. Chill out, and do as David suggested.

[pinhigh27]

WTF is up with her left arm in that pic... This might be off-topic, but I don't really get an instructor hitting an iron off a tee to show something...

[whatwoodtigerdo]

I tried this swing with my driver and finally hit it 300!!!!! Now if I can find a 7200 feet course I will be a scratch golfer. On a serious note, if someone has ailments or older and this keeps them in the game I am all for it. But I compare trying to sell it to able body players to me putting better one handed. I have actually had people ask why I don't try it more because I do it pretty well. And my answer is because I think the potential of doing it 2 handed, aka the proper or standard way, is much higher. Even if this swing somehow made me better than what I am today, if I groove a conventional swing I would be better by leaps and bounds than I could be with this swing.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

I suppose I am similar to you.  I follow MGS but not completely.

Well, Matt if you have any insights to share or think I'm messing up somehow let me know-I was a little dizzy on the greens today after the front 9-it has been a few weeks since touching the sticks still I missed real birdie chances on 1,2, (made 4), 7. 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 real = within 30 feet of the pin.

Kind regards,

Patrick

I guess I meant that I hold a golf club and hit a golf ball (similar to the swing you posted in that regard).

[acerimusdux]

Tiger's backswing was not restricted. He slid his hips, too. BTW, sliding the hips is how good players create secondary axis tilt. You really can't just create it at setup, because to make a full turn, you're gonna have a heck of a time keeping your hips that far forward.

Michelle Wie presets the hip pretty far forward, with good secondary tilt, even head tilted a bit, and doesn't overdo the backswing either. Shoulders at the top are still pointing ahead of the ball, and the club doesn't come near to parallel, and this is either a driver or three wood off the tee. She even has the ball maybe an inch back of where many people are playing that shot.

The three substanital differences I see from what Kiran is teaching are:

1. She obviously shifts her weight into that front heel, and also lifts the back foot well before impact, in order to get the weight forward and get a strong hip turn.  I think Kiran's advice to keep the back foot down as long as possible, while it is used as a "feel" by some golfers to avoid too much sway, is going to be counterproductive for some golfers unless there is something else there ensuring they actually do get the weight forward before impact. This is why I asked Patrick if Kiran taught the step into the left heel; I thought maybe I had missed it somewhere.

2. Obviously, like most of the experienced golfers on Kiran's videos, she doesn't use anything like Kiran's idea of maintaining the wrists uncocked throughout the swing. I've yet to see anyone successfully demonstrate this one in a way that works. Kiran claims this will maintain the width of the swing, which maybe sounded good to her in theory, but in practice it doesn't seem to work for anyone. Even Kiran herself when she attempts this is quite obviously compensating as a result by bending the lead elbow instead, which is likely causing more timing issues, and loss of power and accuracy, in addition to losing width, than would maintaining a natural wrist cock. If you stand naturally with your arms at your side, your wrists will be "cocked". Put something light in your hand, even a club held from the wrong end, so the handle extends, and it will only slope very gradually downward. It's the weight of the clubhead which naturally causes the wrists to want to uncock more than that at the bottom of the swing. So it seems to me a better "minimalist" approach would be to let the left wrist be in it's natural position at the top of the swing, and let it fall naturally into the uncocked position on the downswing--no complex timing needed.

3. She most definitely turns the back shoulder well above the front in the backswing, as is natural.  The shoulders pointing ahead of the ball, which I mentioned above, is a postition Kiran criticizes. This is perhaps another "feel" for Kiran, as even she herself doesn't successfully keep the back shoulder lower, in fact raising it a little above at the top of her swing. But even trying to do this puts Kiran in an awkward position where she is unable to let the arm swing freely down into the ball.  Kiran's model of a restricted hip turn with almost no shoulder turn makes little sense to me. Hogan had a somewhat restriced hip turn (at least in his later "5 lessons" period), but with a full shoulder turn. Mike Austin required less shoulder turn from the torso because he bent the front knee in and pulled the front hip in allowing a fuller hip turn. It seems to me even a minimalist swing likely requires some degree of one or the other, either hip or shoulder turn, to generate acceptable power.

[iacas]

Michelle Wie presets the hip pretty far forward, with good secondary tilt, even head tilted a bit, and doesn't overdo the backswing either. Shoulders at the top are still pointing ahead of the ball, and the club doesn't come near to parallel, and this is either a driver or three wood off the tee. She even has the ball maybe an inch back of where many people are playing that shot.

She does. She still moves her hips forward. And either way, MGS says to create tilt by tilting your right side back and good golfers tend to create tilt by moving their hips forward (whether at address, dynamically during the downswing, or like Michelle, a bit of both).

Hips are wide open at impact (over 40°), torso open to the target line (20° or more left). Not so sure about the torso turn, but obviously Michelle has one of the shorter turns. Still quite a bit more than 45° or so that we've seen in MGS videos.

1. She obviously shifts her weight into that front heel, and also lifts the back foot well before impact, in order to get the weight forward and get a strong hip turn.  I think Kiran's advice to keep the back foot down as long as possible, while it is used as a "feel" by some golfers to avoid too much sway, is going to be counterproductive for some golfers unless there is something else there ensuring they actually do get the weight forward before impact. This is why I asked Patrick if Kiran taught the step into the left heel; I thought maybe I had missed it somewhere.

I agree, and disagree with MGS on the weight/pressure information we've seen thus far (and what I've seen from Kanwar herself on The Facebook).

2. Obviously, like most of the experienced golfers on Kiran's videos, she doesn't use anything like Kiran's idea of maintaining the wrists uncocked throughout the swing. I've yet to see anyone successfully demonstrate this one in a way that works. Kiran claims this will maintain the width of the swing, which maybe sounded good to her in theory, but in practice it doesn't seem to work for anyone. Even Kiran herself when she attempts this is quite obviously compensating as a result by bending the lead elbow instead, which is likely causing more timing issues, and loss of power and accuracy, in addition to losing width, than would maintaining a natural wrist cock. If you stand naturally with your arms at your side, your wrists will be "cocked". Put something light in your hand, even a club held from the wrong end, so the handle extends, and it will only slope very gradually downward. It's the weight of the clubhead which naturally causes the wrists to want to uncock more than that at the bottom of the swing. So it seems to me a better "minimalist" approach would be to let the left wrist be in it's natural position at the top of the swing, and let it fall naturally into the uncocked position on the downswing--no complex timing needed.

I skimmed most of that, but on the face of it, I agree.

3. She most definitely turns the back shoulder well above the front in the backswing, as is natural.  The shoulders pointing ahead of the ball, which I mentioned above, is a postition Kiran criticizes. This is perhaps another "feel" for Kiran, as even she herself doesn't successfully keep the back shoulder lower, in fact raising it a little above at the top of her swing. But even trying to do this puts Kiran in an awkward position where she is unable to let the arm swing freely down into the ball.  Kiran's model of a restricted hip turn with almost no shoulder turn makes little sense to me. Hogan had a somewhat restriced hip turn (at least in his later "5 lessons" period), but with a full shoulder turn. Mike Austin required less shoulder turn from the torso because he bent the front knee in and pulled the front hip in allowing a fuller hip turn. It seems to me even a minimalist swing likely requires some degree of one or the other, either hip or shoulder turn, to generate acceptable power.

I don't know about that. Hogan's hips turned a fair amount…

I do agree that I don't like this about MGS.