Using 5 Simple Keys to Draw and Fade

[MattM]

So, I've been to the course about 5 times so far, and I'm seeing much improvement in my game. My issue stems from having to hit a draw or a fade. In the videos I don't feel as though it gives enough detail as to proper mechanics to hit a big draw or to try to slice it. This obviously, only happens when I get stuck behind a tree. In the videos they VERY briefly discuss the path. They then talk about it being a little open/closed to the path. My problem is that it does not go in depth enough into trying to create the indicitive path for the draw or fade. Another problem I'm having is when I have to hit the ball on a down hill slope. I am really hitting it fat! Is there a different kind of setup I should be making for that type of shot? That's a full swing too btw. Any help you guys can give me using specifically information for the 5 simple keys will be helpful. I know the usual stuff about openning and closing the stance but I need it laid out in the context of the 5 simple keys so my swing stays consistent. Thanks again!

[iacas]

So, I've been to the course about 5 times so far, and I'm seeing much improvement in my game. My issue stems from having to hit a draw or a fade. In the videos I don't feel as though it gives enough detail as to proper mechanics to hit a big draw or to try to slice it.

This obviously, only happens when I get stuck behind a tree. In the videos they VERY briefly discuss the path. They then talk about it being a little open/closed to the path. My problem is that it does not go in depth enough into trying to create the indicitive path for the draw or fade.

Another problem I'm having is when I have to hit the ball on a down hill slope. I am really hitting it fat! Is there a different kind of setup I should be making for that type of shot? That's a full swing too btw.

Any help you guys can give me using specifically information for the 5 simple keys will be helpful. I know the usual stuff about openning and closing the stance but I need it laid out in the context of the 5 simple keys so my swing stays consistent.

Thanks again!

So let's assume you're playing a push-draw. Your feet are at 0°. Your face is +2°, and your path is +4°.

Positive is to the right, negative is to the left.

To hit a fade: point your feet at -8°. This will make your path -4°, and so also set your clubface at -2°. Make the same swing.

To hit a big hook: point your feet at +6°. This will make your path +10°. Set your face at about 5-6°. Make the same swing.

You can play around with ball position (farther back =  more outward path), but the above are the basics. You don't need to make a different swing - just align "the machine" (yourself) differently.

[mvmac]

Will also post this but @iacas 's answer is all you really need.

[Golfingdad]

Will also post this but @iacas's answer is all you really need.

One more answer:

Often times you are a lot better off just playing safe back into the fairway and wedging it onto the green, giving yourself a likely bogey and maybe even a par.

If you try the "hero" shot around the tree, you MAY give yourself a better chance at par (or even birdie) but you also may bring double or triple bogey (or worse) into the picture.

I've found that spending less time practicing the "trick" shots that may get me into trouble anyway, and more time on the regular shots (which will keep me out of trouble more often), has been the better path to success for me.

Good luck!!

[Ernest Jones]

One more answer:

Often times you are a lot better off just playing safe back into the fairway and wedging it onto the green, giving yourself a likely bogey and maybe even a par.

If you try the "hero" shot around the tree, you MAY give yourself a better chance at par (or even birdie) but you also may bring double or triple bogey (or worse) into the picture.

I've found that spending less time practicing the "trick" shots that may get me into trouble anyway, and more time on the regular shots (which will keep me out of trouble more often), has been the better path to success for me.

Good luck!!

QFT. I tried a few hero shots the other day when a simple chip out to the fairway would have been far smarter. None of them paid off.

[mdl]

On hitting fat on the downslopes.  I know Michael Breed is much aligned around here, and I don't have cable anymore anyway so I never watch TGC anymore.  But one thing I randomly picked up from him years ago that's worked well for me is the following.

Align your shoulders as much as possible with the slope (within reason).  Then, on an uphill lie, play the ball a bit further back in your stance.  Play the ball a bit further forwards in your stance on a downhill lie.  This is a counterintuitive way to fix the fats on the downhill lie, but with the shoulders aligned to the slope this has worked well for me over the years.

[mdl]

One more answer:

Often times you are a lot better off just playing safe back into the fairway and wedging it onto the green, giving yourself a likely bogey and maybe even a par.

If you try the "hero" shot around the tree, you MAY give yourself a better chance at par (or even birdie) but you also may bring double or triple bogey (or worse) into the picture.

I've found that spending less time practicing the "trick" shots that may get me into trouble anyway, and more time on the regular shots (which will keep me out of trouble more often), has been the better path to success for me.

Good luck!!

I totally agree with this in general, but shaping around a tree isn't necessarily a hero shot.  It's not that uncommon to miss the fairway just a tad and be in a situation where a not too big draw or fade can get you on the green but if you hit it straight it's not a terrible miss.  In fact, I had a situation like this yesterday where I needed to hit a kind of knock down fade to hit the green.  I gave it a go, successfully hit the low trajectory about the right distance but overcooked it and hit a straight slight pull instead.  But I'd gone for that shot cause that miss was fine.  I had an open look for my pitch, no harder than what I would've had if I'd laid up short on purpose.

Also, just to throw my less informed 2 cents in.  When opening or closing the face, it's key for me to do that with the grip, not with how I orient the club at address.  I have a routine for gripping the club where I hold the club out in front of me with the club face exactly vertical.  If I want the club face 2˚ more open than normal, I'll do that same routine but with the club face 2˚ to the right of vertical (obviously in practice that means just eyeball it a tiny bit right of vertical).  If I take my standard grip then just open the face with my wrists or arms or body or whatever at address, it doesn't work well for me.  I've drilled feels on the back swing and if I try to just take my practiced swing I'll undo that address change instantly.  Something to consider when practicing this stuff.

Also, one feel that's worked for me fading the ball (works best for me with the driver, but also with other clubs), is to do exactly what Erik recommends, open stance and club face the right amounts, but then I have to feel like I'm sort of holding the hands off, trying not to let them finish the swing.  If I try to just take my practiced swing with those address changes I'll more often than not compensate back with the club face subconsciously and hit a big straight pull.

[Golfingdad]

I totally agree with this in general, but shaping around a tree isn't necessarily a hero shot.  It's not that uncommon to miss the fairway just a tad and be in a situation where a not too big draw or fade can get you on the green but if you hit it straight it's not a terrible miss.  In fact, I had a situation like this yesterday where I needed to hit a kind of knock down fade to hit the green.  I gave it a go, successfully hit the low trajectory about the right distance but overcooked it and hit a straight slight pull instead.  But I'd gone for that shot cause that miss was fine.  I had an open look for my pitch, no harder than what I would've had if I'd laid up short on purpose.

Oh totally.  I think it's absolutely important to understand how to work the ball and there are certainly times when it's worth it to try.  I think for me, perhaps a good rule of thumb is something like this:

As long as the club you are hitting is not going to get you into trouble if you "mess up" and just hit it straight, then by all means, go for it.  However, if a straight shot could potentially put you into more trouble than you already are in, then prudence probably dictates a pitch out of some kind.  It's almost lunch so I drew this up really quickly:

Situation A (incidently, basically exactly what I had on my last hole in my tournament last weekend - from a distance of 205 with a 4 iron) is the one where I'd say laying up is the way to go.  Situation B, OTOH, is what I think you're talking about.  Unless you are prone to a doublecross, then there is little harm in trying to hit a fade around the tree onto the green (as long as you don't aim the face at the tree, hahaha!!).  "Worst case" has you pitching from the collection area left of the green for your third.  That is actually better than being 100 yards out, so I say go for it.

When opening or closing the face, it's key for me to do that with the grip, not with how I orient the club at address.

You know, now that you mention this ...

I have always been good at hitting a low slice around a tree.  In the past few years, though, that skill has eroded, and oddly enough, I'm much better at hitting a draw on command.  Now I'm thinking that this is part of the issue.  If I hold the club the same way and rotate my hands open, they don't really know to come back open, they are just coming back to my normal impact position.

Thanks!  I'm going to try this on the range tomorrow!

[MattM]

Thank you guys for posting!  This information is very helpful.  Iacas so really I should be consentrating on actually just changing my stance and not anything about my swing?  Should I just change the way I hold the club to make it closed instead of using my wrists to try and close the club face?

MDL that is definitely counter intuitive.  It won't hurt anything for me to try it though.  I'll definitely work on that when I get out again.

[The Wolf]

So let's assume you're playing a push-draw. Your feet are at 0°. Your face is +2°, and your path is +4°.

Positive is to the right, negative is to the left.

This post caught my attention because its more or less what I am working on. But this explanation has left me a little confused.

Now, with the best of intentions and not aiming to upset the apple cart here, can I discuss this a little further.

OK, feet 0° means feet parallel/square to target and path +4° is the amount from in/out, i.e. right of target. That I get, but face +2° would suggest an open face which is supposed to produce a hook/draw. Now that I don't get. We are talking about a right handed golfer here.

[Ernest Jones]

This post caught my attention because its more or less what I am working on. But this explanation has left me a little confused.

Now, with the best of intentions and not aiming to upset the apple cart here, can I discuss this a little further.

OK, feet 0° means feet parallel/square to target and path +4° is the amount from in/out, i.e. right of target. That I get, but face +2° would suggest an open face which is supposed to produce a hook/draw. Now that I don't get. We are talking about a right handed golfer here.

+2* is 2 degrees right of the target but 2 degrees closed to the path (which is +4* right of the target), ball starts roughly 2* right of target but curves away from the path (which is 4* right of the target) and works back towards the final target.

I'd recommend this thread for further reading.

Important to note that, on this site, we generally use the terms "open" and "closed" as the face angle relative to the path and "right" and "left" as face angle relative to final target.

EDIT* Are you familiar with the "new" ball flight laws? That can cause some confusion too. They used to believe that the ball started in the direction of the path and curved towards wherever the face was pointed at impact. We now know that this is incorrect. The ball will start roughly where the face is pointed at impact and curve away from the path.

[iacas]

This post caught my attention because its more or less what I am working on. But this explanation has left me a little confused.

Now, with the best of intentions and not aiming to upset the apple cart here, can I discuss this a little further.

OK, feet 0° means feet parallel/square to target and path +4° is the amount from in/out, i.e. right of target. That I get, but face +2° would suggest an open face which is supposed to produce a hook/draw. Now that I don't get. We are talking about a right handed golfer here.

I'm not sure what's confusing you about that. +2° face with +4° path will produce a push (a little bit over 2° right of the target line start direction) draw (face 2° closed to the path).

[dsc123]

This post caught my attention because its more or less what I am working on. But this explanation has left me a little confused.

Now, with the best of intentions and not aiming to upset the apple cart here, can I discuss this a little further.

OK, feet 0° means feet parallel/square to target and path +4° is the amount from in/out, i.e. right of target. That I get, but face +2° would suggest an open face which is supposed to produce a hook/draw. Now that I don't get. We are talking about a right handed golfer here.

The post by mvmac explains this.  http://thesandtrap.com/t/61391/shaping-the-ball

[The Wolf]

+2* is 2 degrees right of the target but 2 degrees closed to the path (which is +4* right of the target), ball starts roughly 2* right of target but curves away from the path (which is 4* right of the target) and works back towards the final target.

I'd recommend this thread for further reading.

Important to note that, on this site, we generally use the terms "open" and "closed" as the face angle relative to the path and "right" and "left" as face angle relative to final target.

EDIT* Are you familiar with the "new" ball flight laws? That can cause some confusion too. They used to believe that the ball started in the direction of the path and curved towards wherever the face was pointed at impact. We now know that this is incorrect. The ball will start roughly where the face is pointed at impact and curve away from the path.

OK, I understand what you are saying but I have always talked about face relative to path. Face relative to target confuses me a little but the way you have explained it has at least enlightened me to the terminology. I read the piece you suggested and I will have to re-read it a few times, especially the bit on AoA.

I didn't know there were new ball flight laws but the diagrams I've seen on this site don't seem to be any different from what I have always followed.

E.g. Hook for right hander, aim right of the obstacle with a closed face and the ball will curve from right to left and if the direction and the face conditions are correct, the obstacle will be avoided and the ball will curve towards the target.

The main problem most people have with shaping shots is they tend to avoid the obstacle but don't achieve enough spin to bring the ball back to target

[mvmac]

Thank you guys for posting!  This information is very helpful.  Iacas so really I should be consentrating on actually just changing my stance and not anything about my swing?  Should I just change the way I hold the club to make it closed instead of using my wrists to try and close the club face?

I would not change your grip, you're just making your swing but changing the body alignments at set-up. The direction the hips, shoulders and feet are aimed at set-up.

Check out Myth #7 for the potential problems with trying to close the face.

I didn't know there were new ball flight laws but the diagrams I've seen on this site don't seem to be any different from what I have always followed.

@The Wolf I posted the ball flight article on your thread a couple times. "Old" ball flight laws tell you the ball start in the direction of the path and curves to where the face is pointed.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/73328/confessions-of-a-pull-hooker#post_965700

http://thesandtrap.com/t/73328/confessions-of-a-pull-hooker#post_966077

I didn't know there were new ball flight laws but the diagrams I've seen on this site don't seem to be any different from what I have always followed.

E.g. Hook for right hander, aim right of the obstacle with a closed face and the ball will curve from right to left and if the direction and the face conditions are correct, the obstacle will be avoided and the ball will curve towards the target.

It is different, the article talks about the differences. http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

The tree example, the "old" way tells you to aim at the tree and swing out to the right. If you did it correctly, you should hit the tree because the ball starts in the direction of the face.

[iacas]

E.g. Hook for right hander, aim right of the obstacle with a closed face and the ball will curve from right to left and if the direction and the face conditions are correct, the obstacle will be avoided and the ball will curve towards the target.

Those tend to be incorrect. Nick Faldo suggests similar things at the beginning of this video:

This isn't about the basic ball flight laws, though, so let's move on from that topic, please.

[mdl]

I would not change your grip, you're just making your swing but changing the body alignments at set-up. The direction the hips, shoulders and feet are aimed at set-up.

So you recommend always taking the same grip (at least on non-specialty shot full swings), and just adjusting face angle and setup and trying to train yourself to bring it back to impact at that same angle?

I proposed slight grip adjustments cause that method's never worked super well for me, especially when going for a really big cut or draw with a significantly opened or closed stance.  With the regular grip method those shots too often end up as pulls, maybe with a baby cut, or pushes, maybe with a baby draw.  Really big grip changes lead to bad things for me, but personally I've found it helpful to open or close the face just a tad through the grip to discourage too much reversion towards the stock practiced face angle relative to path.  You think that tends to be a bad idea?

[iacas]

So you recommend always taking the same grip (at least on non-specialty shot full swings), and just adjusting face angle and setup and trying to train yourself to bring it back to impact at that same angle?

Grips are round. You can take "the same grip" but have the clubface pointing in a different direction when you grip it.

Point the clubface where you want it at setup (whether that's right or left of normal depends on the shot). Then grip it with your normal grip.

I think that's what @mvmac is saying… I don't know exactly what it is you go on to say. :)