Struggling with 2 thoughts on release . . .

[AmazingWhacker]

Lately I've been struggling between deciding which of these 2 thoughts/actions is better for my release.  It's basically the same action as far as the club is concerned but 2 different ways of doing it (or feeling like I'm doing it).

The first thought is, when my club is about parallel on the downswing to start to rotate or snap my wrists.  It feels like I'm making a skip-rock motion with my right arm/hand.

The second thought is to not do that and allow the centrifugal force of my body rotation cause my wrists to roll-over.

The first thought/method takes less effort and my belt buckle is usually pointing right at the target when I finish.  The second thought seems like it results in more solidly struck shots.  My belt buckle is usually pointing left of the target when I finish and I'm really, totally on my left side.

With both methods I tend to have the same amount of misses (usually thin).  I haven't really worked on it enough to say if the second method produces greater distance or just feels more solid . .they actually seem about the same or very similar.

Any thoughts on whether one is better than the other?  I think I'm going to go in for a lesson soon . .but just curious/impatient.

[saevel25]

Which ever gives you the best results.

[iacas]

The first thought is, when my club is about parallel on the downswing to start to rotate or snap my wrists.  It feels like I'm making a skip-rock motion with my right arm/hand.

Unless you're swinging very slowly, nothing you feel like you start to do when the shaft is parallel on the downswing will occur before about the time the shaft is horizontal in the follow-through. There's literally not enough time for your muscles to react to anything your brain says… again, unless you're swinging very slowly.

The "point of no return" is approximately when the lead arm is horizontal in the downswing. Much earlier.

And generally speaking, I hate that feel. I don't think I've ever taught it.

The second thought is to not do that and allow the centrifugal force of my body rotation cause my wrists to roll-over.

I don't think I've ever taught anyone to consciously roll their wrists over. I have taught the opposite - resulting in people rolling their wrists over less .

[JetFan1983]

Video or it didn't happen

Seriously, both feels could be heaven or hell or you, who really knows.

Here's what you should do. Film yourself hitting a couple shots using both of these feels. Then, check the video (or post it here) so you can compare and contrast. Maybe you're making the same swing both times? Maybe you're doing two different things?

Either way, it'd be helpful for you to find out the effectiveness of these two separate feels you are using. And video won't lie (unless maybe the camera angle is way off or something, but now I'm getting off track...).

[MS256]

I usually "feel" like I am keeping my hands from rotating over at all. Of course that's not what is actually happening.

Trying to time up intentional rotation is a crap shoot for me.

BTW. I also can't imagine rotating my hand when I skip a rock until it starts to rotate on it's own well after release and up about shoulder height.

[AmazingWhacker]

Thanks for all the quick replies . . . . anyway I suck at explaining golf feelings, lol . . .

Now that I think about it . .the skip-rock motion *does* occur way before my shaft is parallel in the downswing.  I guess I start anticipating it at the very start of my downswing . . it's just that the actual "skip-rock" motion feels like it takes place between the time the shaft is parallel in the downswing (or a bit before) to the time it is parallel in the follow through.

I probably shouldn't call it "rolling wrists over", either . .. skipping a rock is about as close as I can come to the exact feeling.  Just like skipping a real rock . .including the release.

The other feel doesn't feel like skipping a rock . .it feels almost like my arms are made of rope . . like the swing ride at the carnival .. and my clubhead is the swing.  I don't know . .like I said . .I suck at describing golf feelings.

I have tried video but I just don't have the equipment/skill to get enough detail of this particular action.

I did put in a request for a lesson next week.  I know my pro can sort me out.

[mdl]

I've struggled for years not getting the face closed and missing with pushes and push-fades.  Pretty much any arms/wrists action/feel on the down swing I've ever tried has never worked for more than most of a round, and even then inconsistently.  It makes sense on it's own, but my experience has definitely convinced me I fully agree with Erik's general advice that if you're not getting the face closed on a good path it's because of other swing faults, not because you need to simply add in some feeling of manually placing the club face back to the position you want at impact with you hands or wrists or whatever.

[Ernest Jones]

I've struggled for years not getting the face closed and missing with pushes and push-fades.  Pretty much any arms/wrists action/feel on the down swing I've ever tried has never worked for more than most of a round, and even then inconsistently.  It makes sense on it's own, but my experience has definitely convinced me I fully agree with Erik's general advice that if you're not getting the face closed on a good path it's because of other swing faults, not because you need to simply add in some feeling of manually placing the club face back to the position you want at impact with you hands or wrists or whatever.

My Brotha!!! The push is the bane of my golfing existence. Any and every attempt at preventing it makes it worse. Lately I found that focusing on my pivot and ignoring any arm/hand thoughts actually helps it "square" up naturally. I still hit enough shit ass pushes that I need to always aim left enough to accommodate one but not so far left that I'm screwed if it doesn't push. I feel your pain. Meet ya on the right side. I'll bring a couple of beers. :-P

[EverythingGolf]

Forget about the so called "release" like Erik said its advise we both hate. If you have a proper downswing, hands leading, flat left wrist, weight forward, etc. the club face will square up automatically. There really is no need to think about it or to try and do anything with your hands to make it happen.

[14ledo81]

[quote name="mdl" url="/t/73690/struggling-with-2-thoughts-on-release/0_100#post_972028"]I've struggled for years not getting the face closed and missing with pushes and push-fades.  Pretty much any arms/wrists action/feel on the down swing I've ever tried has never worked for more than most of a round, and even then inconsistently.  It makes sense on it's own, but my experience has definitely convinced me I fully agree with Erik's general advice that if you're not getting the face closed on a good path it's because of other swing faults, not because you need to simply add in some feeling of manually placing the club face back to the position you want at impact with you hands or wrists or whatever.

My Brotha!!! The push is the bane of my golfing existence. Any and every attempt at preventing it makes it worse. Lately I found that focusing on my pivot and ignoring any arm/hand thoughts actually helps it "square" up naturally. I still hit enough shit ass pushes that I need to always aim left enough to accommodate one but not so far left that I'm screwed if it doesn't push. I feel your pain. Meet ya on the right side. I'll bring a couple of beers. :-P[/quote] Add another pusher to the group. I find it extremely difficult to start the ball left of my alignment regardless of anything else I am trying to do with it. I don't drink though, so I will bring my own cream soda.

[JetFan1983]

Forget about the so called "release" like Erik said its advise we both hate. If you have a proper downswing, hands leading, flat left wrist, weight forward, etc. the club face will square up automatically. There really is no need to think about it or to try and do anything with your hands to make it happen.

I definitely get what you guys are saying and Erik knows I'm 100% on board, but as a devil's advocate, if I may, I could argue that a feel doesn't have to be based in reality to be a good feel. "Release" as a feel or idea can work for some people for a variety of reasons -- this assumes of course that the picture looks better/the numbers are better or whatever too when using said feel.

Anyway, just devil's advocate... and an opinion.

[AmazingWhacker]

I used to be a HUGE slicer/push-fader/pull-slicer.  I couldn't get the clubface closed to save my life.  Now, if anything, I have the opposite problem.  My misses are usually thins (or tops with the driver) .. but otherwise it's a hook.  At times my hook can be problematic but not when I'm swinging well.

With either thought - the release is basically the same (or so it seems).  It's just whether I feel like I'm triggering/controlling it with my right arm and hand or if feel like my pivot/turn is what's causing the release (cause my arms are at the end of their extension and my body is turning through. . so the arms just naturally have to roll over in order to keep going).  I'd probably not even have any question which is better except the pivot/turn method leaves me with my belt buckle pointing 45 degrees left of target at follow through . .which seems possibly wrong.  That and the pivot/turn method wears me out.  After a long range session my core/stomach muscles are sore and my hands are a bit torn up (I don't wear a glove).

[iacas]

I definitely get what you guys are saying and Erik knows I'm 100% on board, but as a devil's advocate, if I may, I could argue that a feel doesn't have to be based in reality to be a good feel. "Release" as a feel or idea can work for some people for a variety of reasons -- this assumes of course that the picture looks better/the numbers are better or whatever too when using said feel.

To be clear, I don't care what the feel is - if a player wants to feel "release" and that's their words for what they feel and it produces the proper mechanics - great. "Release" all day (until you "release" too much I guess). Have at it.

But "rolling the forearms over" and "rolling the wrists" is almost never something anyone actually really "does" in the golf swing. Your body almost literally can't do it, not at speed. You are releasing #3 and #2, but the release of #3 is incredibly slow until #2 is released. The moment arm of the clubhead is huge when #2 is loaded.

If "lag happens" then "release" (defined as rolling #3 anytime before about A7.25) also "happens" IMO.

I used to be a HUGE slicer/push-fader/pull-slicer.  I couldn't get the clubface closed to save my life.  Now, if anything, I have the opposite problem.  My misses are usually thins (or tops with the driver) .. but otherwise it's a hook.  At times my hook can be problematic but not when I'm swinging well.

With either thought - the release is basically the same (or so it seems).  It's just whether I feel like I'm triggering/controlling it with my right arm and hand or if feel like my pivot/turn is what's causing the release (cause my arms are at the end of their extension and my body is turning through. . so the arms just naturally have to roll over in order to keep going).  I'd probably not even have any question which is better except the pivot/turn method leaves me with my belt buckle pointing 45 degrees left of target at follow through . .which seems possibly wrong.  That and the pivot/turn method wears me out.  After a long range session my core/stomach muscles are sore and my hands are a bit torn up (I don't wear a glove).

Well, it's tough for anyone to know what your feels are, and unless you have high-speed video, or AMM data, or some such, it's tough to know what you're actually doing too.

For example, Bill Haas "releases" the club (using the more common definition), yet you won't really see much "release" until the fourth frame here:

How much did Hogan "release" the club prior to impact or even in the first foot or two after impact?

If you now pull-hook the ball, why are you worried about "releasing"? It seems to me that you probably flip at the ball, shut the face, hit your thin pull-hooks, and you need to learn Key #3 stuff (line the shaft up later, as you probably do it prematurely) and to eventually feel less "release."

[JetFan1983]

If "lag happens" then "release" (defined as rolling #3 anytime before about A7.25) also "happens" IMO.

Yep, by that definition we're in full 100% agreement. It's really important the OP understands that.

[iacas]

Yep, by that definition we're in full 100% agreement. It's really important the OP understands that.

Yes, and "release happens" because the golfer has properly sequenced the downswing to accelerate the club so that it reaches peak velocity just at or before impact.

[AmazingWhacker]

In my mind, anyway . .I'm doing like in the pictures above.  That's what I'm trying to do . .release after the ball.  As far as I can tell I am releasing after the ball . .no matter which of the 2 thoughts I'm using.  I'm wondering how do you get to frame 4 - assuming proper club path . .is it with your right arm and hand with a whipping motion that you started before frame 1?  Or with the force of your pivot/turn?

I think I do understand that if lag happens, release happens.  I mean . .I definitely see them as related things.  As far as I can tell lag and release are happening for me.  I'm getting good distances, good trajectories.  Obviously I'm not getting as much lag as I can and I'm not hitting it as purely as I can, either.  I kind of just got to the point where my contact sounds different than it used to . . I'm not getting that fizzing sound my teacher gets but I'm starting to get the "whomp" sound at impact.  When my teacher hits an iron off a matt . .it sounds like "Whomp . .fizzzzzzz".

[iacas]

I think I do understand that if lag happens, release happens.  I mean . .I definitely see them as related things.  As far as I can tell lag and release are happening for me.  I'm getting good distances, good trajectories.  Obviously I'm not getting as much lag as I can and I'm not hitting it as purely as I can, either.  I kind of just got to the point where my contact sounds different than it used to . . I'm not getting that fizzing sound my teacher gets but I'm starting to get the "whomp" sound at impact.  When my teacher hits an iron off a matt . .it sounds like "Whomp . .fizzzzzzz".

FWIW, where you're standing can affect whether you hear that sound or not… I have that sound, but I don't hear it myself when I'm hitting the ball. Ditto for Dave, for example.

[AmazingWhacker]

FWIW, where you're standing can affect whether you hear that sound or not… I have that sound, but I don't hear it myself when I'm hitting the ball. Ditto for Dave, for example.

That's really interesting.  What does it sound like to you?  If it's not entirely too anal, ha ha . . I spend a lot of time hitting into my net so I've become really tuned into contact sound and feel.

Last time I was at the range I was hitting my gap wedge off a matt and the contact sounded like kind of a chirping noise (I mean, in addition to the "whack").  It was weird.  I was hitting them super high that day, too.