Anyone else tired of hearing the PGA and USGA talk about pace of play?

[newtogolf]

Absolutely not.  The fast golfer isn't holding anyone up behind them.  You can't force a group in front of you to move at your own speed (I've tried ), but a group behind you will be slowed down to match your speed.

If one pays to play at a course with a published 4.0 hour POP then that's the pace.  If guys behind are pushing and hitting into those in front because they want to play faster then I consider that behavior inconsiderate.  If the pace is 4 hours don't play that course if you only have 3.5 hours to play.

[Dave2512]

Yeah really no such thing as playing as fast as you want unless the course is open. The instances of fast golfers pushing me compared being held up by slow golfers is pretty much zero. Even singles that can see there is nowhere to go typically hang back. Rushing to just end up waiting for the next tee or green to clear is pointless.

[David in FL]

If pay to play at a course with a 4:00 POP then that's the pace.  If guys behind me are pushing us, hitting into us because they don't like that pace, I consider that behavior inconsiderate.  If the pace is 4 hours don't play that course if you only have 3.5 hours to play.

No one said anything about hitting into anyone.....

And FWIW, that published POP isn't meant to be a target, it's a maximum.  You don't get fined if you play a bit faster.

[Dave2512]

Let me see if I understand.

You think 4 hours and 15 minutes is too long for an 18 hole round.  Therefore, if a course sets a 4 hour 15 minute round they have "allowed too much time without putting much thought into it".

How do you know they didn't put thought into it and allowed too much time?

Because they allow 4 hours 15 minutes.

Why do they allow 4 hours 15 minutes?

Because they didn't put thought into it and allowed too much time.

That's good old fashioned circular logic.

Note you didn't ask about the course at all, you didn't make an informed judgment, you just blurted out "4 hours 15 minutes is always too long".  This is why us "slow" players don't really pay much attention to you when you complain.  The times seem arbitrary and it seems like an excuse to try to get everyone else to play at your brisk pace.  I would feel uncomfortable trying to do 18 in 3 and 1/2 hours.  I'm being honest here.  That's too short for me.  4-41/2 seems like a sweet spot.

Not what I said at all. First I mentioned 4.5 hours not 4.25, which is an even 15 minutes per hole. Which suggests without taking into consideration hole length or difficulty they have designated a POP of 15 minutes per hole. There is no reason a 150 yd par 3 should take the same amount of time to play as a 525 yard par 5. By design you should be playing two less shots on a much shorter hole with shorter, easier to control clubs. Get it?

[Aguirre]

There are no abnormal conditions that interfere with the proper playing of the game and in doing so the committee would be waiving a Rule of Golf, so I guarantee that no such permission was obtained from the USGA.

Ah, okay.

Still, I think reviewing and eliminating the rule not only be beneficial, but more fair.

[waldo]

As I read through these posts I see so many outstanding perceptions of why play is slow and how to improve it. I have realized that the reoccurring thought that there is no consensus on what is a fair pace or how to create it. I have thought about the what's and whys for years and now I am thinking it is what it is and there are no answers that will make everyone satisfied. So my solution for me is I find courses that tend to play faster and  get one of the first (if not the first tee time), but this also creates a problem; finding three other players that can create a schedule that allows them to tee off really early and in addition they too must enjoy golfing in under 3.5 hours. Maybe its time to take some ideas from the Europeans. You tee off from the tees that match your handicap and your tee times match your ability to keep pace. How they track all that is beyond me, but my golfing buds from England and Ireland tell me its done and that it works.

[Dave2512]

As I read through these posts I see so many outstanding perceptions of why play is slow and how to improve it. I have realized that the reoccurring thought that there is no consensus on what is a fair pace or how to create it. I have thought about the what's and whys for years and now I am thinking it is what it is and there are no answers that will make everyone satisfied. So my solution for me is I find courses that tend to play faster and  get one of the first (if not the first tee time), but this also creates a problem; finding three other players that can create a schedule that allows them to tee off really early and in addition they too must enjoy golfing in under 3.5 hours. Maybe its time to take some ideas from the Europeans. You tee off from the tees that match your handicap and your tee times match your ability to keep pace. How they track all that is beyond me, but my golfing buds from England and Ireland tell me its done and that it works.

IMO it's a moving target and depends on the course. A start would be more information on the scorecard about what is expected. Does the total POP mean how long is spent just golfing or does that include bathrooms stops, bev cart stops, travel between holes that are far apart. That why I like POP clocks on greens and HBH POP listed on cards. When you can see "you are here" and "we expect you to complete this hole in X" my experience is golfers behave differently. Just seeing a total expected POP once on the card is pretty vague. Nobody expects to exceed it but they don't take measures to stay in position if they don't know. The difference between 4 and 3.5 hours is only about 90 seconds per hole. Only takes a few rough holes to use all that up. But it's more than the expected POP. If the course wants golfers using drop areas and taking other measures to keep up they need to enforce it.

Education and expectation only works for those with the discipline to self police. Here the only courses that don't bog down are those that enforce their POP policy. It's not a coincidence everything about those courses is more enjoyable, typically in the best condition, provide the best service from the restaurant to the reservation system. The problems arise from allowing customers to do whatever they want.

[David in FL]

IMO it's a moving target and depends on the course. A start would be more information on the scorecard about what is expected. Does the total POP mean how long is spent just golfing or does that include bathrooms stops, bev cart stops, travel between holes that are far apart. That why I like POP clocks on greens and HBH POP listed on cards. When you can see "you are here" and "we expect you to complete this hole in X" my experience is golfers behave differently. Just seeing a total expected POP once on the card is pretty vague. Nobody expects to exceed it but they don't take measures to stay in position if they don't know. The difference between 4 and 3.5 hours is only about 90 seconds per hole. Only takes a few rough holes to use all that up. But it's more than the expected POP. If the course wants golfers using drop areas and taking other measures to keep up they need to enforce it. Education and expectation only works for those with the discipline to self police. Here the only courses that don't bog down are those that enforce their POP policy. It's not a coincidence everything about those courses is more enjoyable, typically in the best condition, provide the best service from the restaurant to the reservation system. The problems arise from allowing customers to do whatever they want.

POP time starts with the first tee shot of the group and ends when they completely clear the green. Yep, the time spent hugging, kissing, shaking hands, and tallying scores on or near the green so as to prevent the group behind you from hitting their approach shots counts too!

[Dave2512]

POP time starts with the first tee shot of the group and ends when they completely clear the green.

Yes which is why I think listing HBH POP is a better way to go than just printing a total time on the card, if they list it at all. One side may play faster than the other, 3 par 3's on a par 71, could be a couple hundred yards shorter etc. When people are just out there they may not understand they are behind unless it is pointed out. The guy taking 15 minutes a hole on a course that expects people to finish in 4:X hasn't exceeded the total POP until he's on the last couple of holes, not that I think 4 hrs is fast. By his watch he's on time through 15-16 holes even if he's dragging ass. More than one group doing it and the course has slowed down on that side.

[David in FL]

Yes which is why I think listing HBH POP is a better way to go than just printing a total time on the card, if they list it at all. One side may play faster than the other, 3 par 3's on a par 71, could be a couple hundred yards shorter etc. When people are just out there they may not understand they are behind unless it is pointed out. The guy taking 15 minutes a hole on a course that expects people to finish in 4:X hasn't exceeded the total POP until he's on the last couple of holes, not that I think 4 hrs is fast. By his watch he's on time through 15-16 holes even if he's dragging ass. More than one group doing it and the course has slowed down on that side.

I agree. GPS units that show group pace against POP is good too. But the problem remains, most courses are afraid to set realistically aggressive POP standards, and don't even enforce the slow standard that they do set.

[Dave2512]

I agree. GPS units that show group pace against POP is good too. But the problem remains, most courses are afraid to set realistically aggressive POP standards, and don't even enforce the slow standard that they do set.

Yep and I am probably starting to sound like I am stuck on repeat. Like you I think it is an enforcement issue first, education without enforcement is pointless. When half the LCD is too lazy to push their grocery cart to a collection bin I don't expect much from people when turned loose on 200 acres without supervision.

[colin007]

Yet again, I will support the opinion that 4 hours is a slow pace. There's no reason why a foursome can't complete a round in 3:45 going at an unhurried pace.

[Dave2512]

Yet again, I will support the opinion that 4 hours is a slow pace. There's no reason why a foursome can't complete a round in 3:45 going at an unhurried pace.

Probably considering the difference between 3.75 and 4 hrs is about 40 seconds a hole.

[boil3rmak3r]

Yet again, I will support the opinion that 4 hours is a slow pace. There's no reason why a foursome can't complete a round in 3:45 going at an unhurried pace.

I agree. We played as a 5-some this past Sunday morning. We finished in 3 1/2 hours. The 4-some behind us was two holes back when we finished. We weren't playing speed golf, just ready golf....

[saevel25]

"The event featured 12 golfers of varying skill levels. Riding in shared carts, they went out in twosomes as the first groups of the day, spaced at four-minute intervals. Triple-bogey was the maximum score allowed per hole. By morning’s end, golfers who normally shoot in the 70s completed their rounds in 2:04; 80s golfers wrapped up play in 2:15-2:20; and 90s golfers finished in 2:20-2:27. According to Unterreiner, none of the golfers reported feeling rushed. “Something else we learned is that a course can send players out as twosomes and not lose any revenue because you can still get the same amount of golfers out in an hour,” Unterreiner said. “Instead of foursomes playing at eight-minute intervals, you have twosomes at four minute intervals.”" http://scorecard.golf.com/2014/04/28/can-minnesota-golfers-play-in-2-12-hours-you-betcha/?sct=hp2 Interesting concept to speed up play.

[colin007]

Probably considering the difference between 3.75 and 4 hrs is about 40 seconds a hole.

I was going to put 3.5 but I figured I'd get jumped on...

[MS256]

I was going to put 3.5 but I figured I'd get jumped on...

I'm just glad I don't live in a 4 hour zone because that would knock me out of our Saturday game and I look forward to that all week.

We start between 10:00 and 10:30 am. and get done between 1:00 and 1:30 pm. I have to get home and get ready to leave for work at 2:00 pm. We did have a slow guy in our group a few weeks ago that scared me but we still got done at 1:40 pm. so I had time.

[teamroper60]

I play in a skins game with 4 other guys twice a week.   The five of us typically tee off at 9:00am and by 12:30pm, we are popping tops in the clubhouse.   We aren't playing speed golf and we aren't actually attempting to play fast.   We just play ready golf.  I think if 5 of us can get in 18 holes in just under 3.5 hours, there isn't really a legitimate excuse for a 4-some (or less) to need any longer than that.