Science of the Short Game, Effects of Grooves and Milling on Wedges

[Pretzel]

So did they not bother with their testing then, or are we just waiting for the results?

From the way it read to me, it would appear as though the manufacturers didn't want to make the wedges with those specifications for testing. I would assume you could go to a store and buy some wedges with face milling and others without, but you wouldn't be comparing apples to apples there since they'd need to be from different manufacturers in that case, rather than made specifically for this testing scenario by a single manufacturer.

[misty_mountainhop]

This is pretty cool to think about it. Visually, my milled Scratch wedges look like they'd impart more spin on the ball. The texture feels like a file and you would just assume that this surface would give you more spin and grip. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it honestly.

I think of this as like sandpaper vs regular notebook paper. The former obviously has much more grip. I would think the "file" texture of a milled wedge would impart more spin, even if it's minuscule, as opposed to a wedge with no milling. Admittedly, that's not the most logical approach in thinking about this. But, it's the best visual description I could come up with on 2 hours of sleep.

I would guess that we're talking about the amount of friction required to stop a ball slipping on the clubface for a given impact. Once you've reached the necessary level, however the face is treated, making it rougher won't make any difference. If a simple, raw face, even w/o grooves or milling is enough for that point to be reached, I'm not sure doing anything else is going to make any difference. Which seems to be what's being said here.

Usual smoke and mirrors from the OEMs then! I guess the pros who have an option to change daily(!), might do so simply for complete consistency of performance....or just because they can.

[mvmac]

So did they not bother with their testing then, or are we just waiting for the results?

Yeah I don't think they are going to do the testing since it's seems like they would just reach the same conclusion as all the OEMs.

[Lihu]

Yeah I don't think they are going to do the testing since it's seems like they would just reach the same conclusion as all the OEMs.

I am very surprised that the milled grooves do not make a difference. The Ping i20 have those milled grooves, and it really feels like it's gripping the ball for the draw.

The "no groove" condition was listed as one of the 4 conditions tested, and they outright said that would also perform as well???

I'm not going to argue with the information, but I am extremely surprised.

[Golfingdad]

and it really feels like it's gripping the ball for the draw.

Seriously???

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

and it really feels like it's gripping the ball for the draw.

Seriously???

Okay, maybe I'm just a tiny bit overzealous about the Ping feel?

[Golfingdad]

Okay, maybe I'm just a tiny bit overzealous about the Ping feel?

Perhaps. But Pings do rock!!!

[Spyder]

Perhaps.   But Pings do rock!!!

Bah, I'm addicted to Scratch now. I'll never use a different wedge again. They should hire Fabio as their spokesman.

[mvmac]

The "no groove" condition was listed as one of the 4 conditions tested, and they outright said that would also perform as well???

Yes as well off the fairway, out of the rough and sand would be a different story.

I am very surprised that the milled grooves do not make a difference. The Ping i20 have those milled grooves, and it really feels like it's gripping the ball for the draw.

Ok just to clarify, the reason a ball draws is because the face is closed to the path, grooves aren't gripping it more or less to make the ball draw.

[saevel25]

I am very surprised that the milled grooves do not make a difference. The Ping i20 have those milled grooves, and it really feels like it's gripping the ball for the draw.

The "no groove" condition was listed as one of the 4 conditions tested, and they outright said that would also perform as well???

I'm not going to argue with the information, but I am extremely surprised.

Just think of it this way. Grooves are basically tread on a tire. On a perfect sunny day, great road conditions, you can have ZERO tread and still have control over the car. You throw in water, you are screwed with out tread.

I think of it this way. What is the surface area that the ball comes in contact with the club. A few grooves, maybe 3 at most. So you have 2 milled areas that the ball contacts with. I don't think milling adds that much just because of how the ball strikes with a glancing blow, and the area in which it strikes. To me milling might help out more with sandy conditions, and rough because it adds more area for finer debris to collect.

[misty_mountainhop]

Just think of it this way. Grooves are basically tread on a tire. On a perfect sunny day, great road conditions, you can have ZERO tread and still have control over the car. You throw in water, you are screwed with out tread....

Great analogy!

[iacas]

The corners of the grooves also interact with the golf ball. You can see this even on 50 to 60 yard shots when pieces of the cover are ripped off and left in the grooves.

[boogielicious]

It would be interesting if the took the next step and reduced the coefficient of friction on the surface, i.e., add a Teflon coating.  Keep the grooves but slick up the surface.

[Lihu]

It would be interesting if the took the next step and reduced the coefficient of friction on the surface, i.e., add a Teflon coating.  Keep the grooves but slick up the surface.

You can also just spray some WD-40 on your wedge just before your shot?

Yes as well off the fairway, out of the rough and sand would be a different story.

Ok just to clarify, the reason a ball draws is because the face is closed to the path, grooves aren't gripping it more or less to make the ball draw.

I am talking about the milled surface. The surface of the ping clubs have this extra circular milling pattern on the surface. They get gummed up with the ball cover when I use the club. I have to clean the surface with a wire brush to get the bits of ball cover out.

It might be just a feel thing, but when I have a freshly cleaned club it feels so much more "grippy" than when playing the back 9.

[mdl]

The corners of the grooves also interact with the golf ball. You can see this even on 50 to 60 yard shots when pieces of the cover are ripped off and left in the grooves.

This is why the OP confused me.  I just don't know enough of the physics I guess.  I read the OP as saying that out of a clean, dry fairway lie, a totally smooth club face imparts the same spin as a grooved, milled face.  We've all seen those knicks the grooves make in the club.  Are the physics of it just like @misty_mountainhop said and the smooth face, without grass or water or sand in the way, still has enough friction that the ball doesn't "slip" at all in the tiny fraction of a second of contact?  But if the ball deforms and holds on the club face long enough for the grooves to create nicks in the ball, how is that not creating more friction and more spin, even out of a totally clean lie?

[iacas]

This is why the OP confused me.  I just don't know enough of the physics I guess.  I read the OP as saying that out of a clean, dry fairway lie, a totally smooth club face imparts the same spin as a grooved, milled face.  We've all seen those knicks the grooves make in the club.  Are the physics of it just like @misty_mountainhop said and the smooth face, without grass or water or sand in the way, still has enough friction that the ball doesn't "slip" at all in the tiny fraction of a second of contact?  But if the ball deforms and holds on the club face long enough for the grooves to create nicks in the ball, how is that not creating more friction and more spin, even out of a totally clean lie?

The OP is not entirely clear. I'm not certain I buy that a wedge with no milling or grooves performs the same as a wedge with grooves (with or without the micro textures milled on the face). I'll call John and ask him though.

[David in FL]

You can also just spray some WD-40 on your wedge just before your shot?

Please don't!

I am talking about the milled surface. The surface of the ping clubs have this extra circular milling pattern on the surface. They get gummed up with the ball cover when I use the club. I have to clean the surface with a wire brush to get the bits of ball cover out.

It might be just a feel thing, but when I have a freshly cleaned club it feels so much more "grippy" than when playing the back 9.

a)  You hit the ball so hard that the milling gets gummed up with pieces of the ball cover?!  Gotta say, I've never heard of that before.  What kind of balls are you using?

b)  Even if I'm reading that right though, a quick brush with a wire brush attached to your bag only takes a second before each shot.

[Golfingdad]

I am talking about the milled surface. The surface of the ping clubs have this extra circular milling pattern on the surface. They get gummed up with the ball cover when I use the club. I have to clean the surface with a wire brush to get the bits of ball cover out.

It might be just a feel thing, but when I have a freshly cleaned club it feels so much more "grippy" than when playing the back 9.

I think you're being overzealous again about that Ping feel, @Lihu .

Like @David in FL , I have never heard anything like this.  No offense but, I don't think it's a "feel" thing as much as it's an "imagination" thing.