Jump to content
IGNORED

How Would You Play It (16 at Saddleback Golf Course in Firestone)


Pretzel
Note: This thread is 3595 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Isthmuses are land. I think you mean the little bit of water right?

Whoops ... why in my head do I think that an isthmus is the opposite of a peninsula?

I'm guessing because I learned it as a kid (and either learned it incorrectly or just remember my cheat incorrectly) and never had any reason to try and use it again until now. :8)

Yes, I meant the little bit of water.  That little bay :-P is what makes the design, and thus makes you have to think.  Without it (similar to ms's picture) then you just take the club that will clear the water and aim as far left as you dare.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Replies 121
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

By number 16 I'll know if I'm hitting well (enough) that day.

I think 90% of the time I'd normally play it as a par 3.  (here it's a 2h or 5w with an 'easy' swing - at altitude, it might even play like a 200 yard shot for me - I like that shot even better 5i or 4h).

Here's another big point in favor - I like the bunkers to gather up anything a bit 'off' - I'm comfy with my bunker game such that I'm playing the odds better by going straight at it.

If I'm not straight that day, probably a 6 iron layup then.  But, frankly, if I'm not hitting well, I'm just putting off the troubling bit to my second shot anyway.

Quote:
Iacas - You hit something at the green. It's 55 yards wide and 75 yards deep. Take enough club, favor the right a little, and hit it.

this

Bill - 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

With no wind, at this elevation, all carry, 19 hybrid, which carries 205-210 on a good hit.  Might actually do a 3 wood, since carry is about 230-235 on good strike, grip down on it.  BUT there is no way I could consistently hit that green at this length, at my level.

Full 3 wood could actually carry all the trouble everywhere out there. Call me crazy, but I might try to aim for that water in the middle between the fairway and the green.  If I pull it, over the green in the bunker (hopefully), if I fade/slice, on the fairway.  If I hit it perfectly straight, it should be on the little strip of land.

Tough hole.

Bettinardi Golf Kuchar #2 Cobra Bio Cell+ Callaway Razr Hawk 3W TaylorMade SLDR 19H Mizuno JPX 825-Pro 4-AW Scor 55 & 60 (Wedges)

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Moderator
Whoops ... why in my head do I think that an isthmus is the opposite of a peninsula?

I'm guessing because I learned it as a kid (and either learned it incorrectly or just remember my cheat incorrectly) and never had any reason to try and use it again until now.

Yes, I meant the little bit of water.  That little bay  is what makes the design, and thus makes you have to think.  Without it (similar to ms's picture) then you just take the club that will clear the water and aim as far left as you dare.

a-ya.  If you were from Maine, you'd call it a cove.  A bay is pretty big. ;-)

That is why I mentioned to have enough distance to clear that little nasty tongue of water and not just land on the green.  My driver is the least controllable club, but a miss right and long is not bad.

Scott

Titleist, Edel, Scotty Cameron Putter, Snell - AimPoint - Evolvr - MirrorVision

My Swing Thread

boogielicious - Adjective describing the perfect surf wave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Id have to go bubba watson style with slicing driver. Roll that ball along fairway. But the angle of that cove is too sharp in my opinion. Id tee off with hybrid and get to about the farther tree - rightside of fairway. Ive hit 200 carry hybrid like... once thusfar. 21deg hybrid.
Link to comment
Share on other sites


I've played this hole, and found that for me the best option is to hit to the fairway so as to leave a wedge up the chute between the traps guarding the green. A good wedge is one put bird, par if only fair.

I have birdied this hole from this strategy, the slope of the green from this perspective is uphill right to left so attacking from here makes sense to me.

Too many bad results possible for me to risk driving the green for a one in a thousand chance at an eagle.

Craig

:wilsonstaff: - FG Tour F5
:wilsonstaff: - Fybrid 3W 15*, FY 19.5*, 4H 24*
:wilsonstaff: - FG 51 Tour Blade 4-9
:wilson: - Harmonized 50, 55, 60
Old Master - TZ Putter

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Too tempting.  I'm going for the green every time.  Maybe I'd shy away if there was some nasty wind or something.  But a 210 yard carry at 5000 ft. is too tempting.  I COULD GET AN EAGLE NOM NOM NOM NOM

"Witty golf quote."

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator

To be fair, this hole is a par three. It's a long par three, but calling it a par four is dumb. The only eagles on this hole are holes in one.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Too tempting.  I'm going for the green every time.  Maybe I'd shy away if there was some nasty wind or something.  But a 210 yard carry at 5000 ft. is too tempting.  I COULD GET AN EAGLE NOM NOM NOM NOM


It's not the carry that tests one on this hole, it's accuracy, distance control, and stop. More than a few eagle hopes have turned to double bogeys here. :doh:

Craig

:wilsonstaff: - FG Tour F5
:wilsonstaff: - Fybrid 3W 15*, FY 19.5*, 4H 24*
:wilsonstaff: - FG 51 Tour Blade 4-9
:wilson: - Harmonized 50, 55, 60
Old Master - TZ Putter

Link to comment
Share on other sites


It's not the carry that tests one on this hole, it's accuracy, distance control, and stop. More than a few eagle hopes have turned to double bogeys here.

Well, I have eagle hopes on every hole and I definitely make more doubles than eagles. So it'll be just like normal.

"Witty golf quote."

Link to comment
Share on other sites


You hit something at the green. It's 55 yards wide and 75 yards deep. Take enough club, favor the right a little, and hit it.


Measure again! You seem to be counting the traps, slopes, and rough in your estimation. Go for it distance to center of the green from the tips is 265, standard men's tees 230-245.

If I remember right the traps are steep and deep, the slopes severe and the rough surrounding the green thick and deep. A miss of the 30x27 yard green rewards your risk with a wet ball or a tough recovery.

Craig

:wilsonstaff: - FG Tour F5
:wilsonstaff: - Fybrid 3W 15*, FY 19.5*, 4H 24*
:wilsonstaff: - FG 51 Tour Blade 4-9
:wilson: - Harmonized 50, 55, 60
Old Master - TZ Putter

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Measure again! You seem to be counting the traps, slopes, and rough in your estimation. Go for it distance to center of the green from the tips is 265, standard men's tees 230-245. If I remember right the traps are steep and deep, the slopes severe and the rough surrounding the green thick and deep. A miss of the 30x27 yard green rewards your risk with a wet ball or a tough recovery.

That's the thing, though, every second shot that's not in the middle of the green is a tough recovery. You could hit a beautiful layup to the middle of the fairway and you've still got water and sand encircling the hole. Might as well have that second shot from as close as possible.

In my bag:

Driver: Titleist TSi3 | 15º 3-Wood: Ping G410 | 17º 2-Hybrid: Ping G410 | 19º 3-Iron: TaylorMade GAPR Lo |4-PW Irons: Nike VR Pro Combo | 54º SW, 60º LW: Titleist Vokey SM8 | Putter: Odyssey Toulon Las Vegas H7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

That's the thing, though, every second shot that's not in the middle of the green is a tough recovery. You could hit a beautiful layup to the middle of the fairway and you've still got water and sand encircling the hole. Might as well have that second shot from as close as possible.


The best layup leaves a wedge from the fairway 70 yards to the center, to a 30 yard wide target. I'll take that rather than 240 carry, one hop and stop any day! :roll:

Craig

:wilsonstaff: - FG Tour F5
:wilsonstaff: - Fybrid 3W 15*, FY 19.5*, 4H 24*
:wilsonstaff: - FG 51 Tour Blade 4-9
:wilson: - Harmonized 50, 55, 60
Old Master - TZ Putter

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I have played it a few times, Saddleback is just down the road from me. What he didn't mention is it is almost always breezy there...

Last time I played Saddleback my son-in-law sank a 6 ft putt on 15 that the wind blew a good 8 inches left!

Agree totally with your assessment of 16.

Craig

:wilsonstaff: - FG Tour F5
:wilsonstaff: - Fybrid 3W 15*, FY 19.5*, 4H 24*
:wilsonstaff: - FG 51 Tour Blade 4-9
:wilson: - Harmonized 50, 55, 60
Old Master - TZ Putter

Link to comment
Share on other sites


The best layup leaves a wedge from the fairway 70 yards to the center, to a 30 yard wide target. I'll take that rather than 240 carry, one hop and stop any day!

You know, it's possible to stop a ball on the green without spin checking it. Especially since the green slopes back towards the tee, the ball just needs to come down from a high apex and it will lose most of its energy, even bounce backwards in some cases without having a high amount of spin. Ball speed and launch angle are also important for stopping the ball, especially with the long clubs. It's not a finesse shot to stop those long approaches, it's a power shot. Hoist the ball into the air and carry everything, the ball will be in the air for so long it will be too tired to roll.

There's an ENTIRE STROKE to be gained here. If you can hit to the same target in one shot vs 2 shots, no matter how much tougher the longer approach is, you want to do it. You'll end up so much better off so much of the time it will offset the difficulty. The risk is also probably just as high on the layup, it's quite possible to send it into trouble, but since you spent the stroke to hit the fairway you really NEED to get it close. If you just don't have the carry yardage to reach the green, then you play it from the tees that allow you to do so. Like I said, play it from the ladies tee. That's what laying up will accomplish. Even if you are a short hitting senior, you can carry 130 yards. If you're a beast then hitting 5 iron over water is a thrill.

It's also possible to hit into the water on the layup or the approach, doubling the risk. The trouble doesn't magically know when you hit a layup and repel your shot onto the green for you; you can get burned on the layup, plus you already wasted a stroke laying up.

In My Bag:

Adams Super LS 9.5˚ driver, Aldila Phenom NL 65TX
Adams Super LS 15˚ fairway, Kusala black 72x
Adams Super LS 18˚ fairway, Aldila Rip'd NV 75TX
Adams Idea pro VST hybrid, 21˚, RIP Alpha 105x
Adams DHY 24˚, RIP Alpha 89x
5-PW Maltby TE irons, KBS C taper X, soft stepped once 130g
Mizuno T4, 54.9 KBS Wedge X
Mizuno R12 60.5, black nickel, KBS Wedge X
Odyssey Metal X #1 putter 
Bridgestone E5, Adidas samba bag, True Linkswear Stealth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

That's the thing, though, every second shot that's not in the middle of the green is a tough recovery. You could hit a beautiful layup to the middle of the fairway and you've still got water and sand encircling the hole. Might as well have that second shot from as close as possible.


That's the way I see it too. The risk of tough up and down or a tough on and two putt is worth it considering there is also a chance of a 2 or a 3 on the hole.

Hard for me to say what percentage of shots would go in the water without playing it and I'm not sure what that percentage would have to be to make it no longer worth it to go for the green.

My guess is that if I thought there was more than a 10% chance of going in the water I would lay up (unless the match situation forced my hand).

Anybody know what percentage of water balls should throw up a red light on a shot like that?

(Which of course we would all have to guestimate according to how we thought we were hitting the ball).

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Moderator

The best layup leaves a wedge from the fairway 70 yards to the center, to a 30 yard wide target. I'll take that rather than 240 carry, one hop and stop any day!

Still think "going" for the green is the better play. I'd rather have a putt, bunker shot or a 20 yard pitch shot than a 70 yard shot.

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator

Measure again! You seem to be counting the traps, slopes, and rough in your estimation. Go for it distance to center of the green from the tips is 265, standard men's tees 230-245.

At 5000 feet elevation. And of course I'm measuring that stuff. That's all area that leaves me with a reasonably short shot to the green.

If I remember right the traps are steep and deep, the slopes severe and the rough surrounding the green thick and deep. A miss of the 30x27 yard green rewards your risk with a wet ball or a tough recovery.

It's not tougher than a 70+ yard shot to the same target.

The best layup leaves a wedge from the fairway 70 yards to the center, to a 30 yard wide target. I'll take that rather than 240 carry, one hop and stop any day!

The best layup is a 240-yard shot to an even smaller target , and that doesn't even put you greenside.

Here's a 70-yard shot. I didn't even measure to the middle of the green.

The fairway there is not even 20 yards wide. It's narrower than the green. And it's still 240+ yards away. Lay back and the fairway shrinks to 17 yards or so. And the water is still there.

70 yards, that yellow line.

Still think "going" for the green is the better play. I'd rather have a putt, bunker shot or a 20 yard pitch shot than a 70 yard shot.

Uh hmmmmmmm.

This isn't a par four.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 3595 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • If it's not broken don't fix it. If you want to add grooves to it just because of looks that's your choice of course. Grooves are cut into putter faces to reduce skid, the roll faced putter is designed to do the same thing. I'm no expert but it seems counter productive to add grooves to the roll face. Maybe you can have it sand-blasted or something to clean up the face. Take a look at Tigers putter, its beat to hell but he still uses it.     
    • I get trying to limit relief to the fairway, but how many roots do you typically find in the fairway? Our local rule allows for relief from roots & rocks anywhere on the course (that is in play). My home course has quite a few 100 year old oaks that separate the fairways. Lift and move the ball no closer to the hole. None of us want to damage clubs.
    • Hello, I've been playing a Teardrop td17 F.C. putter for many years and love it. It still putts and feels as good or  better than any of the new putters I've tried and it's in excellent condition except the face has dings in it ever since I bought it used that kind of bother me. I was just wondering if it's possible to have some really shallow horizontal grooves milled into the face on a "roll face" putter. I think I would rather spend some money on it instead of trying to get used to a new putter.  Thanks
    • I agree with @klineka & @DaveP043 above.  When a new member first joins the club they cold be told that they are not eligible for tournaments until they have an established HCP.  As you said, it only takes a few rounds.  If they do not to post HCP that was their choice and choices have consequences.  If playing in the tournament is important to them then they should step up and establish an HCP.  Maybe they miss the 1st tournament, is that a real big deal?  And if it is a "Big Deal" to them then they had the opportunity to establish the HCP. As for not knowing how to report for HCP I assume your club has a pro and they should be able to assist in getting the scores reported and I suspect out of state courses may also have staff that can assist if asked.
    • Wordle 1,013 2/6 🟨⬜⬜🟨🟨 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 Thought I was gonna be a big shot today...  🙂    Nice Job!
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...