How Would You Play It (16 at Saddleback Golf Course in Firestone)

[Pretzel]

I thought that was the topic of this thread. :roll:

The way I read what he said is that he was trying to say that the way you play it doesn't change what a hole's par rating should be. It merely affects what you as an individual should be expecting to score on a hole. I'm being honest when I say that, in tournaments here, you are losing a stroke to the top half of the field if you don't get a 3 or better on this hole. Additionally, the hole previous to this (485 yard par 4) is one that many choose to play as a par 5. Same as I tend to agree that this is more of a par 3 than a par 4, I would have to say that the 15th hole is par 4 more than a par 5. If someone plays it like a par five, it still doesn't change the idea that I feel it should be a par four, albeit a tough one. It's just that many people play it as a par 5 and are happy doing it that way, but that doesn't mean it becomes a par five. Anyways, I just thought I'd throw in an example of a hole that's almost the opposite, where many feel it is rated a stroke lower for par than it should be instead of a stroke higher for par than it should be.

[iacas]

I thought that was the topic of this thread.

Context, man. Context.

How you choose to play the hole is not relevant to the par, the course rating, etc.

[late347]

Well in my country if this hole was played in stableford they would have to account for both a scratch golfer and bogey golfer (course rating and course slope) For match play and tournament golf its different, maybe But for expected score absolutely the slope and rating do matter about what your expected score will be for the course. If the course is insanely hard then after some time the slope will b3 adjusted upward (because bogey golfers shoot wors3 score and statistics are assessed)

[Lihu]

Well in my country if this hole was played in stableford they would have to account for both a scratch golfer and bogey golfer (course rating and course slope)

For match play and tournament golf its different, maybe

But for expected score absolutely the slope and rating do matter about what your expected score will be for the course.

If the course is insanely hard then after some time the slope will b3 adjusted upward (because bogey golfers shoot wors3 score and statistics are assessed)

It still doesn't change the way you play the hole. I'm pretty sure that they are referring to the strategy for attacking the hole.

We have 300 yard par 4's on many local courses. I am a bogey golfer , and I usually treat them as birdie opportunities because I can almost drive them (and have on occasion), this outlook on the holes is essentially treating it as a long par 3. Even if I do not reach them, up and down is possible from the distances I usually get to them.

BTW, I do not drive 300 yards, it's just that the conditions allow it some days. Most days I have a 60/52 degree wedge left, but the same strategy.

[Maddog10]

I'm going for it every time, unless there are just some crazy winds going on that day or something. Great birdie opportunity on this hole. I'm not saying I could always put it on the green, but the landing area as a whole is quite large and it would have to be a pretty disappointing shot for me to end up in the drink. If I'm safe up around the green, even if I were to be in a bunker, I feel really good about making par and should have a good look at making birdie.

It's not like laying up to the right is a safe shot. If you aim down the middle of the fairway, there is still some significant risk involved. If you aim down the right side of the fairway and plan to clear the hazard, then you are looking at a potential shot from the rough that still has to go over the water. Seeing that the "lay up" option involves this much risk, I'm just going for all the marbles and giving myself a good chance at making birdie.

[late347]

I dont have any reliable 235 carry clubs in the bag. With my driver id overshoot this green when maxed out If i was playing literall this couese in stableford tournament id rely on my high hcp on this hole and gather maybe a couple points. High hcp combined with average golf knowledge and ballstriking provides good advantage in stableford setup tournament. Scratch golfer would get his birdie but therees 17 other holes with more opportunity for high hcp player. Hopefully. I would reach the front bunkers when maxing out my hybrid. But you gotta have the accuracy also. Hopefully direct impact wont bury deep into sand in case you attack the front bunkers with like a hybrid.

[jakepalm]

Everybody (who said lay-up) be honest:  If the thread was started over again and we were told that this is a par 3, how many of you would still choose to lay-up?

Yeah looking back and now having been given some more information...I may take back my original plan to lay-up.

[CarlSpackler]

How you choose to play the hole is not relevant to the par, the course rating, etc.

I think I am guilty here. I believe I chose to go for it since it didn't there was much safety in laying up, but I probably do let the par rating for the hole dictate how I play it. Anymore, I just expect to need three strokes to reach a par 5 for instance. Even if I'm within a 3w, I'm thinking of playing it safe since I have another stroke to play with.

Interesting thoughts...

[Lihu]

I dont have any reliable 235 carry clubs in the bag. With my driver id overshoot this green when maxed out

If i was playing literall this couese in stableford tournament id rely on my high hcp on this hole and gather maybe a couple points.

High hcp combined with average golf knowledge and ballstriking provides good advantage in stableford setup tournament.

Scratch golfer would get his birdie but therees 17 other holes with more opportunity for high hcp player. Hopefully.

I would reach the front bunkers when maxing out my hybrid. But you gotta have the accuracy also. Hopefully direct impact wont bury deep into sand in case you attack the front bunkers with like a hybrid.

The main difference between a lower handicap and a high handicap hitting the ball this far, is that the lower handicap does it more often and is more consistent in distance.

[rehmwa]

If I see a 220 - 230 yard par 4......(and it's not just a cow pasture, 'beginners' course)

first thing that happens is I get suspicious about the hole and whether I just don't see the 'trouble' baked into the hole to force the 'obviously' par three distance (long and difficult for sure, but still), to a par 4.

2nd thing, I just try to hit the green anyway - I like going after these shots, even when I wasn't playing as well as I 'hope' I am (pretend I am?,  wish I was?) now

this hole is the easy one - go for the green (and surrounding traps and edge) if you have the distance, it's likely the easier shot vs the narrower target for layup......

IMO - if yardage was the 'only' criteria, I'm comfy with par 3's up to nearly 240.  I might not par often, but I'd respect them being assign a 3.  As low as 260, I don't complain or mock it being a par 4.  Usually short par 4's have more going on to make them very fun.  That 235 to 260 range is tricky for me......I don't have an opinion without seeing the hole.....

Other options for this situation - the back tees could easily be set as the 'standard tees' and call it a par 4.  while the 230 yard tees and in could be assigned the Par 3 for the 'pro' tees.

We have a Par 4/5 in one of my local courses that plays like that - the 'mid' tees are par 5 and about 500.  The "back tees" are actually forward of the 'mid' tees and play the hole as pretty long 460 par 4.......  with trouble (water all around the left front) near the green, it's nice - you can play a fairly stock par 5, or tee up 40 yards and have a very challenging par 4.

[mvmac]

With my driver id overshoot this green when maxed out

That would be an acceptable play on this hole. Better to be long and have a 20-40 yard pitch than have to deal with the water on the tee shot and approach shot.

[Lihu]

That would be an acceptable play on this hole. Better to be long and have a 20-40 yard pitch than have to deal with the water on the tee shot and approach shot.

I suppose for a right handed player the natural miss (presume a fade?) would be away from the water, whereas for a lefty there is water on the left after the hole again. The only hope for me with a driver is to hope I end up in one of those bunkers, or I need to get a 235 carry with my 3W.

Next lesson, you just need to show me how to carry a 3W 235.

[Pretzel]

I, too, am far too often guilty of becoming "complacent" with par distances. On a par 4 if I'm 240 out, I'm going for it evey time. A par 5 with 240 out after my tee shot and I'm thinking about whether or not to go for it. After reading through these "How Would You Play It?" Threads, I think I need to develop a better pre-shot routine that includes a check for wind (I all to often miss due to forgetting about wind) and an honest risk assessment. If the only risk on a shot is rough, I should probably go for the green on that par 5 since a miss is still fine.

[CarlSpackler]

One thing that would be helpful, for me at least, would be to have a different thread for each hole. I'm having trouble keeping up with which post is discussing which hole. Just a suggestion.

[iacas]

One thing that would be helpful, for me at least, would be to have a different thread for each hole. I'm having trouble keeping up with which post is discussing which hole. Just a suggestion.

We have that already, don't we?

This thread is about the one in the title: 16 at Saddleback.

[CarlSpackler]

We have that already, don't we?

This thread is about the one in the title: 16 at Saddleback.

There is a pic of another hole on page 2. Perhaps we've been discussing the hole of the OP all along. I get confused easily though.

[Golfingdad]

One thing that would be helpful, for me at least, would be to have a different thread for each hole. I'm having trouble keeping up with which post is discussing which hole. Just a suggestion.

We have that already, don't we?

This thread is about the one in the title: 16 at Saddleback.

There is a pic of another hole on page 2. Perhaps we've been discussing the hole of the OP all along. I get confused easily though.

Yeah, @MS256 posted a pic of a similar hole a ways back (shame on him!! ) and it was confusing for a bit, but I think at this point, we're all back discussion the OP.

I hope.

[CarlSpackler]

Yeah, @MS256 posted a pic of a similar hole a ways back (shame on him!! ) and it was confusing for a bit, but I think at this point, we're all back discussion the OP.

I hope.

I wasn't going to throw anyone under the bus or anything.

At any rate... carry on!