I am nothing like a Pro Golfer!!!!!

[Strandly]

Remember the guy who triple bogeyed then lost in the playoff (Kyle Stanley?)? Pretty sure you could have put a hundred 8s on that tee and a good number of them score a 7, 6, or even a 5.

Haha, exactly!

[Lihu]

There isn't really.  What I actually wrote isn't being debated.  What I actually wrote was that an 8 handicap couldn't beat a pro one hole under the pressure of a PGA Tour event on a PGA Tour course under the bright lights.  That was subsequently changed to both "any amateur" (not an 8 handicap) and "on my local course" (so, not in a PGA event then).

*Sigh*.  Obviously "an amateur" can beat a pro one hole.  Justin Rose got T-3 at the British as an amateur.  What I said was that that particular poster can't, who is an 8 handicap.  That isn't the same thing.

Not sure why I bother, but to restate it:

I agree that an amateur golfer (i.e. 8 handicap etc.) playing at his local against a pro on a Saturday with no pressure and no reason for the pro to try could, theoretically, win a hole.  I think its unlikely, but possible.  I said this in the first post pretty explicitly.

I contend that such a golfer has no chance to win a hole against a pro on a PGA Course with the pressure of a gallery and a real incentive for winning/losing such that the pro tries as hard as he can to win every hole.

This has also been my contention, but only in relation to a bogey golfer . The odds are not stacked that badly for a true 8 handicap. I think an 8 can win a couple holes if he is playing to his handicap.

I play pretty well against other 18 handicaps, and looking at the Byron Nelson course opened my eyes. Watching the pros playing opened them even more.

So, I asserted that there are probably a million to one odds of an 18 handicap golfer winning a single hole against a pro, and someone argued that my statement was completely unfounded. Maybe my argument was too loose, with the parameters not well enough defined.

If the pro and the 18 handicap were playing at their normal playing capability, I contend that the 18 handicap can't possibly win a single hole against the pro.

This is coming from someone who regularly beats other 18 handicaps as an 18 handicap.

[MS256]

Since it has been contended that the pro golfer wouldn't make mistakes against the bogey golfer because he could play it safe (or something) blah, blah, blah... Let's assume that is correct and give that point. I ask again, what does the pro golfer do when the bogey golfer makes eagles and birdies? Always match them? (C'mon really?)

[Strandly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

This has also been my contention, but only in relation to a bogey golfer. The odds are not stacked that badly for a true 8 handicap. I think an 8 can win a couple holes if he is playing to his handicap.

I play pretty well against other 18 handicaps, and looking at the Byron Nelson course opened my eyes. Watching the pros playing opened them even more.

So, I asserted that there are probably a million to one odds of an 18 handicap golfer winning a single hole against a pro, and someone argued that my statement was completely unfounded. Maybe my argument was too loose, with the parameters not well enough defined.

If the pro and the 18 handicap were playing at their normal playing capability, I contend that the 18 handicap can't possibly win a single hole against the pro.

This is coming from someone who regularly beats other 18 handicaps as an 18 handicap.

Since it has been contended that the pro golfer wouldn't make mistakes against the bogey golfer because he could play it safe (or something) blah, blah, blah...

Let's assume that is correct and give that point.

I ask again, what does the pro golfer do when the bogey golfer makes eagles and birdies?

Always match them? (C'mon really?)

Right.  And it's funny how somehow the pro player has become the standard rather than par for the hole.  Why isn't is sufficient to simply tie the pro, the bogey player has to outright win the hole?  I think if you look at how many times an 8 handicap (or whatever handicap the argument is using now) simply ties a pro you'd be surprised at how non-superhuman it makes the pro look.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

This has also been my contention, but only in relation to a bogey golfer. The odds are not stacked that badly for a true 8 handicap. I think an 8 can win a couple holes if he is playing to his handicap.

I play pretty well against other 18 handicaps, and looking at the Byron Nelson course opened my eyes. Watching the pros playing opened them even more.

So, I asserted that there are probably a million to one odds of an 18 handicap golfer winning a single hole against a pro, and someone argued that my statement was completely unfounded. Maybe my argument was too loose, with the parameters not well enough defined.

If the pro and the 18 handicap were playing at their normal playing capability, I contend that the 18 handicap can't possibly win a single hole against the pro.

This is coming from someone who regularly beats other 18 handicaps as an 18 handicap.

Since it has been contended that the pro golfer wouldn't make mistakes against the bogey golfer because he could play it safe (or something) blah, blah, blah...

Let's assume that is correct and give that point.

I ask again, what does the pro golfer do when the bogey golfer makes eagles and birdies?

Always match them? (C'mon really?)

I have to admit that birdies are becoming more frequent for me (an 18 handicap), but I also have watched the pros in action. They are pretty amazing.

Their courses are setup really hard, and I even got to play a "short" version of their courses. Putting is very hard like some other posters stated, but the distances are overwhelming. If you don't drive at least an average of 274 yards, you're going to be three shots from the green. Pretty hard for me to imagine a person on the better end of an 18 handicap making birdies on these courses.

As I am relatively new to this game and have only progressed my game in the last few months, I'll just back off my opinions of a pro versus a bogey golfer.

Right.  And it's funny how somehow the pro player has become the standard rather than par for the hole.  Why isn't is sufficient to simply tie the pro, the bogey player has to outright win the hole?  I think if you look at how many times an 8 handicap (or whatever handicap the argument is using now) simply ties a pro you'd be surprised at how non-superhuman it makes the pro look.

I'll agree with the possibility of tying a hole on the courses we normally play, but the pro has a much better chance of birdies than we do.

Super-human? I never said they are super-human. I just stated that they are gifted with the ability to play very well.

It's like a power lifter hoisting 400 pounds over their head. You wouldn't necessarily think that you could do that if you trained hard enough?

It takes talent and the right genetic structure. I tend to think that any sport, including golf, at the highest levels requires some form of talent that most of us do not possess.

[MS256]

I'll grant you that there are different types of "bogey golfers". Some are bogey golfers because they can't hit a golf ball very well (ever). They rarely make a birdie and almost never (if ever) an eagle. The other "bogey golfer" is fully capable of hitting the ball just fine (and long) for a single shot or two. They are also fully capable of completely blowing up and spraying the ball all over the county. They can and do make birdies and eagles when they happen to nail a couple of good shots that miraculously go straight. Since I happen to know quite a few people that fit the second category and not the first that's what I think of when I think of a bogey golfer. Some that play in our Saturday game can be good for a few birdies and help the team even though they aren't going to ever break 90. Edit: Well I did just think of one guy in our game that fits the first bogey golfer group. He actually hits the ball fairly accurately, not very long, should make some pars, but always finds a way to blow his par chances. Now he is the guy I think would never win a hole against a pro.

[Hammer 4]

Just a thought. With regards to the Pro, say a top 50 PGA tour player, that plays month in month out to make a good living for him/her self and  to support a family possibly, plus...playing in front of 100's, 1000's of onlookers, and tv cameras, ect

Now take that same pro, put him or her on a decent course with a foursome, and No one gawking at the pro, no cameras, no real Pressure, except maybe a 100.00 bet..My guess is that pro will play as good or better w/o the pressure, than he or she does in competition on a weekly basis, thus further improving his or her chances of playing even better.

Having said that, and that being my thought re: this subject, I would be hard pressed to bet against that pro.

Be fun to see what the pros shoot when they go out for an informal outing with their buddies for a 18 hole round.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

I have to admit that birdies are becoming more frequent for me (an 18 handicap), but I also have watched the pros in action. They are pretty amazing.

Their courses are setup really hard, and I even got to play a "short" version of their courses. Putting is very hard like some other posters stated, but the distances are overwhelming. If you don't drive at least an average of 274 yards, you're going to be three shots from the green. Pretty hard for me to imagine a person on the better end of an 18 handicap making birdies on these courses.

As I am relatively new to this game and have only progressed my game in the last few months, I'll just back off my opinions of a pro versus a bogey golfer.

I'll grant you that there are different types of "bogey golfers". Some are bogey golfers because they can't hit a golf ball very well (ever). They rarely make a birdie and almost never (if ever) an eagle.

The other "bogey golfer" is fully capable of hitting the ball just fine (and long) for a single shot or two. They are also fully capable of completely blowing up and spraying the ball all over the county. They can and do make birdies and eagles when they happen to nail a couple of good shots that miraculously go straight.

Since I happen to know quite a few people that fit the second category and not the first that's what I think of when I think of a bogey golfer. Some that play in our Saturday game can be good for a few birdies and help the team even though they aren't going to ever break 90.

Edit: Well I did just think of one guy in our game that fits the first bogey golfer group. He actually hits the ball fairly accurately, not very long, should make some pars, but always finds a way to blow his par chances. Now he is the guy I think would never win a hole against a pro.

Sure, I play these types regularly as well. My son was one of them before this high school golf season.

However, I would like to note that it is one thing to be able to make a birdie or two on any given Sunday game, and quite another to make it within 18 holes while playing against one of the best players in the world even without a gallery watching them or any other outside pressure.

Just a thought. With regards to the Pro, say a top 50 PGA tour player, that plays month in month out to make a good living for him/her self and  to support a family possibly, plus...playing in front of 100's, 1000's of onlookers, and tv cameras, ect

Now take that same pro, put him or her on a decent course with a foursome, and No one gawking at the pro, no cameras, no real Pressure, except maybe a 100.00 bet..My guess is that pro will play as good or better w/o the pressure, than he or she does in competition on a weekly basis, thus further improving his or her chances of playing even better.

Having said that, and that being my thought re: this subject, I would be hard pressed to bet against that pro.

Be fun to see what the pros shoot when they go out for an informal outing with their buddies for a 18 hole round.

My point exactly, thanks.

EDIT: Who's going to volunteer to pay for such a round, it could be interesting? And who's the 18 handicap to volunteer for this? Of course he probably needs to put a $10,000 stake he can beat the pro on a single hole. The prize for him might be $100,000 to win that one hole?

[MS256]

Just a thought. With regards to the Pro, say a top 50 PGA tour player, that plays month in month out to make a good living for him/her self and  to support a family possibly, plus...playing in front of 100's, 1000's of onlookers, and tv cameras, ect

Now take that same pro, put him or her on a decent course with a foursome, and No one gawking at the pro, no cameras, no real Pressure, except maybe a 100.00 bet..My guess is that pro will play as good or better w/o the pressure, than he or she does in competition on a weekly basis, thus further improving his or her chances of playing even better.

Having said that, and that being my thought re: this subject, I would be hard pressed to bet against that pro.

Be fun to see what the pros shoot when they go out for an informal outing with their buddies for a 18 hole round.

Well since I don't know anybody on the PGA Tour I can't say for sure but I do know a guy that missed his PGA Tour card by one stroke in Q-School (so he's at least that close).

He plays fairly regularly in the games at the country club. Even though he is by far the best player there he doesn't win every hole or even every match (just a whole lot more than everybody else).

Well I never expected to comment much in this thread so I will bow out of it.

[Hammer 4]

Well since I don't know anybody on the PGA Tour I can't say for sure but I do know a guy that missed his PGA Tour card by one stroke in Q-School (so he's at least that close).

He plays fairly regularly in the games at the country club. Even though he is by far the best player there he doesn't win every hole or even every match (just a whole lot more than everybody else).

Well I never expected to comment much in this thread so I will bow out of it.

I know 0 pros, as I stated, it was just a Thought, don't mean it's gospel...

[Lihu]

Well since I don't know anybody on the PGA Tour I can't say for sure but I do know a guy that missed his PGA Tour card by one stroke in Q-School (so he's at least that close).

He plays fairly regularly in the games at the country club. Even though he is by far the best player there he doesn't win every hole or even every match (just a whole lot more than everybody else).

Well I never expected to comment much in this thread so I will bow out of it.

Sorry for that. I definitely respect your opinion, and have some math to do to support any kind of hypothesis. All I was doing was making an unsupported hypothesis. I did not mean to stir up anger amongst the other posters here, especially you.

In any case, I do know someone who is a +4 (or so) handicap. Shooting par on a course would be a bad day for him. I wonder if we can get him to play a pretty good bogey golfer for a reasonable stake. We would need a local bogey (18 handicap golfer I exclude myself and my friends) who is willing to pay his stake.

[Strandly]

I'd be surprised if anyone cared enough to go test it, and even if they did I don't think a single round would prove anything regardless of who won.

[Lihu]

I'd be surprised if anyone cared enough to go test it, and even if they did I don't think a single round would prove anything regardless of who won.

Sure, a sample of one is not exactly proof of anything.

[Abu3baid]

Sure, a sample of one is not exactly proof of anything.

Well yeah nothing concrete, but it would cause a major revision in the 1:1,000,000 odds ;) I'm just kidding around, I think this thread has run its course!

[SoundandFury]

Hey spaz how about you take a ****ing chill pill.  You're so balls deep in these guy's crotch you don't know which way is up.  The few people I've talked to who follow these tournaments closer than I all say the TV stations cut away from bad shots and try to portray the field in the best possible light.  Do I have a problem with it?  Not really, no, because I generally don't watch them.  When stupid saps like you buy into it 200% and then rage out on the interwebs like a goddamn child it can be annoying though.  Anyway, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice the field for these things are what, 30-50 guys deep?  And who do they show.  Oh yeah, the top 5 or 10 guys.  Why is that?  Because everyone else is sucking hind tit?  Imagine that.

Like I said, I know these guys are good at what they do but give a rest Uncle Rico.

You're a douchebag.  An uninformed douchebag as well.

[Vinsk]

Well, I can tell you this. In 1989 my cousin was on the PGA Tour. Played a few tournaments but never made it and eventually went into insurance and then a finance business. I played a round in Missouri with him, his dad and my dad. I beat him on 2 holes, my dad beat him on one and his dad beat him on two holes. Of course, he shot 66. I shot 78, my dad shot 74 and his dad (my uncle) shot 73. I was a 7 hcp at that time.

[Pretzel]

You're a douchebag.  An uninformed douchebag as well.

While his point was stated in a manner that was probably not the best way to get the point across, pros do have bad shots and bad holes that the TV stations cut away from unless they're a leader. The reason is simple: people don't turn on the TV to watch someone make a bogey or double. If they wanted to see that, they'd go to their local course and watch people play there. They want to see the birdies, the approach shots to 3 feet, and the long drives down the middle. Considering the size of the field as well as their exceptional talent, the TV broadcasters usually have a queue of good shots and holes to show instead of showing the bad ones.

[Golfingdad]

While his point was stated in a manner that was probably not the best way to get the point across, pros do have bad shots and bad holes that the TV stations cut away from unless they're a leader. The reason is simple: people don't turn on the TV to watch someone make a bogey or double. If they wanted to see that, they'd go to their local course and watch people play there. They want to see the birdies, the approach shots to 3 feet, and the long drives down the middle. Considering the size of the field as well as their exceptional talent, the TV broadcasters usually have a queue of good shots and holes to show instead of showing the bad ones.

That's not true ... They don't "cut away" from bad shots, they just don't show many shots from guys who aren't leading. But consider the times when guys hit really bad shots (like last season or the one before when Webb had a couple of cold shanks), they will show those over and over and over and over. Although I will agree that we all have a slightly inflated view of the pros because we are only watching the ones playing the best that week. When in reality, they're averaging a collective 73 or 74 as a group, not 67.