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Persimmon vs Metal


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  1. 1. Persimmon or Metal

    • I perfer Persimmon
      12
    • I prefer metal
      46


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Used to love my persimmon woods but, on balance, I'll stick with the modern technology.

Regarding distances etc, check this out:

Home Course: Wollaton Park GC, Nottingham, U.K.

Ping G400, 9°, Alta CB 55S | Ping G400, 14°, Alta CB 65S | Adams Pro Dhy 18°, 21°, 24°, KBS Hybrid S | Ping S55 5-PW, TT DGS300 | Vokey 252-08, DGS200 | Vokey 256-10 (bent to 58°), DGS200 | Ping Sigma G Anser, 34" | Vice Pro Plus

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I played a Peerless Pete driver that was blonde persimmon. It had a green graphite shaft and had a hollowed out center with a metal tube in the hole. It cost me $200 back in 1993. I sold it a couple of years ago. It was as long as a Big Bertha warbird.
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Anyone have any actual data proving that wood woods can hit it as far as metal woods when hit on the sweet spot?  I don't believe it unless the regulations on metal woods specifically limit the maximum launch speed to the same as wood woods.

Think baseball.  It's clearly false that a wood bat hits it as far as a metal bat just with less forgiveness (ie, smaller sweet spot, much weaker hits not hit on the sweet spot).  Now of course people have been scared by the danger of metal bats hitting screaming line drives and killing the pitcher, so they've put regulations on the bats and kids play with composite bats that hit it much more like a wood bat.  Unless there's similar regulations in golf it just can't be true that metal woods don't hit it farther than wood woods.

I played college ball with aluminum bats, and played through my mid 20s in recreational adult leagues with wood bats.  I can definitely imagine that the feeling of hitting it perfect with a wood wood can not be beat!

Matt

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Still have a Powerbilt Citation, real persimmon, take it out a couple days a year just for fun.  Unbelievably sweet when hit right, on good swings distance is essentially the same as my Titleist metal driver.  MUCH easier to work left/right/high/low (even with today's balls), but don't mishit it, those shots get ugly in a hurry.

If I ever find a matching 4-wood I'll grab it! (Current fairway "wood" is a 16.5 degree Titleist with the small head so it'll be a straight exchange except better feel and workability).

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Originally Posted by mdl

Anyone have any actual data proving that wood woods can hit it as far as metal woods when hit on the sweet spot?  I don't believe it unless the regulations on metal woods specifically limit the maximum launch speed to the same as wood woods.

Think baseball.  It's clearly false that a wood bat hits it as far as a metal bat just with less forgiveness (ie, smaller sweet spot, much weaker hits not hit on the sweet spot).  Now of course people have been scared by the danger of metal bats hitting screaming line drives and killing the pitcher, so they've put regulations on the bats and kids play with composite bats that hit it much more like a wood bat.  Unless there's similar regulations in golf it just can't be true that metal woods don't hit it farther than wood woods.

I played college ball with aluminum bats, and played through my mid 20s in recreational adult leagues with wood bats.  I can definitely imagine that the feeling of hitting it perfect with a wood wood can not be beat!

Comparing a 460 cc driver with maxed out COR then not a chance. Can't say I've ever hit a single drive with persimmon as far as my top 10 or so drives since switching to a modern high COR driver in late 2009. I was also alternating playing rounds on the same courses using persimmon, a BB Warbird, and a G10, so not just going by memory. Compared to a pre-2000(ish) metal wood though, persimmon is about on par. It depends on the wood and the player. A lot of shots would be "about the same", but the longest shots would be with the most modern equipment and the shortest with the persimmon. ymmv

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Originally Posted by lumpuckeroo

I still have a persimmon driver from Lousiville Golf, and I would agree there is nothing more satisfying than hitting a balata ball on the screws of a persimmon driver.

Side question ... are the old balata balls that much different in terms of feel when compared to the spinny tour balls of today ?      Obviously, I would expect them to feel totally different than a hard distance ball ... but I've always been curious about it.    I picked up a solid persimmon driver off ebay a while back for fun & it sounds great with modern balls.     Flights very high though - much higher ball flight than a metal driver...

John

Fav LT Quote ... "you can talk to a fade, but a hook won't listen"

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Ok I'm gonna spoil the party.... I've had this thought for years and damn it I'm gonna say it...

I have an old set of Walten Hagen Ultradyne II from the 1970s, and I'll use a balata ball... common in those days

And I'll use my current set, with the ball I use regularly and let you know if there is any difference...

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Originally Posted by onthehunt526

Ok I'm gonna spoil the party.... I've had this thought for years and damn it I'm gonna say it...

I have an old set of Walten Hagen Ultradyne II from the 1970s, and I'll use a balata ball... common in those days

And I'll use my current set, with the ball I use regularly and let you know if there is any difference...

I've done the vintage versus modern trial a few times and here are my observations, in case you need a head start.

1.) Good luck with the Walter Hagen equipment from the 1970s. You might have some good gear, but every older set of Hagens I've seen had garbage shafts in them.

2.) If you have some brand new balata balls that would be beneficial. A vintage wound ball is not much of a ball, and a vintage balata is shadow of its former self. How well would you expect a rubber band to stand up over the decades?

3.) If one were to say clubs are better by a certain factor, you could double that number and still come up short for the driver. Now triple that number and thats the difference between a new ProV1 and a vintage Titleist Tour 100 balata. Of course I just made those ratios up, but what I'm saying is that if you're accustomed to taking a full swing at a new ball with a new driver, and if you haven't played a wound ball with vintage irons and woods lately, you'll enjoy all the new detours into the neighbouring fairways and bushes.

Good luck.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

3.) If one were to say clubs are better by a certain factor, you could double that number and still come up short for the driver. Now triple that number and thats the difference between a new ProV1 and a vintage Titleist Tour 100 balata. Of course I just made those ratios up, but what I'm saying is that if you're accustomed to taking a full swing at a new ball with a new driver, and if you haven't played a wound ball with vintage irons and woods lately, you'll enjoy all the new detours into the neighbouring fairways and bushes.

Good luck.

I'm a relative newbie - are you saying the old balata balls spin alot MORE than a current ProV1 ??    Holy cow, how did anybody keep those things in play ?!?!??

John

Fav LT Quote ... "you can talk to a fade, but a hook won't listen"

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Didn't notice the video above before I posted.  He pulled the two wood clubs (versus straight or slight push with the metal one) which tends to increase distance a tad, but still, point taken.  Interesting that the distances were so similar.  Found an article studying wood versus aluminum baseball bats( http://biomed.brown.edu/orthopaedics/Baseball/Bat_Perfom_MSSE_100102.pdf ), and it turns out the high performance aluminum bats only hit the ball about 5-10 mph faster with the same impact bat speed.

I found some other baseball data that I plotted below.  Looks like with a baseball at least, an extra mph of exit speed translates into ~5 feet of distance gain.  So the aluminum bat hits the ball about 25-50 feet (8-16 yards) farther than a wood bat on sweet spot hits.  Given a drive goes about twice the distance of a pro power hitter's home run, you might expect a slightly bigger difference with the golf clubs, but then given how huge a baseball bat is perhaps it's possible to attain a higher COR with a bat than with even a 460cc driver.

Anyway, point is that while hitting the ball an extra 35 feet (and of course much harder hits on off sweet spot hits) translates into massive stats gains for players in baseball, the aluminum bat doesn't actually give as big a distance gain as you might think, and in golf those extra 12 yards make even less difference.

Matt

Mid-Weight Heavy Putter
Cleveland Tour Action 60˚
Cleveland CG15 54˚
Nike Vapor Pro Combo, 4i-GW
Titleist 585h 19˚
Tour Edge Exotics XCG 15˚ 3 Wood
Taylormade R7 Quad 9.5˚

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Originally Posted by inthehole

I'm a relative newbie - are you saying the old balata balls spin alot MORE than a current ProV1 ??    Holy cow, how did anybody keep those things in play ?!?!??

Back in the pre-ProV1 days (actually pre Titleist Professional 100, the ProV1 predecessor) you had to make a decision between spin and distance.  You didn't get both.  The balata balls were very spinny and not very durable ... hit one thin and you would cut it.  I never used them because it's bad enough to lose a few balls a round, but to also break a few balls a round would add up the $$$ really fast.

Balls now are soft and durable, and designed to spin less.

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Quote:

I'm a relative newbie - are you saying the old balata balls spin alot MORE than a current ProV1 ??    Holy cow, how did anybody keep those things in play ?!?!??

Spin difference with a wedge would be minimal, if anything the ProV1 might spin a little more.  However, modern balls and clubs are designed to impart spin differently depending on the type of shot and club, for example the spin off a driver is only a fraction of what you get with a wedge.  On the other hand, balata's spun a lot off every club, so it was a LOT easier to shape shots.  That could work both for or against you, depending if the "shaping" was intentional.  Believe me, with today's equipment you'll never seen a slice like you could get from a balata off a persimmon driver - we're talking about aiming left side of a fairway and slicing over the trees and into the far rough on a parallel fairway!  Of course, bending a 30-40 yard draw/hook around a dogleg was an incredibly satisfying feeling when you got it right, and about the only person who can do that anymore is Bubba Watson.

Originally Posted by inthehole

Side question ... are the old balata balls that much different in terms of feel when compared to the spinny tour balls of today ?      Obviously, I would expect them to feel totally different than a hard distance ball ... but I've always been curious about it.    I picked up a solid persimmon driver off ebay a while back for fun & it sounds great with modern balls.     Flights very high though - much higher ball flight than a metal driver...

Most older clubs had higher lofts (Driver standard was 11 degrees), so Balata's were designed to fly lower to fit the equipment of the time.  They also came in different compresions, 90 was the most common, 100 was for the big hitters, 80 (when you could find them) was for ladies and seniors.  The softest ball you've ever hit would feel hard compared to an 80, but if you didn't have a high swing speed the 100's felt like rocks!

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Originally Posted by misty_mountainhop

Average clubhead speed on the PGA Tour has gone up over 11 MPH in the last 20 years.

Longer drivers.

Lighter drivers.

Larger driver faces.

Improved fitness.

More emphasis on distance.

None of that's the golf ball.

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I'm conflicted. I like the persimmon feel but the metal performance.

Biggest difference between the two: With persimmon, on the back nine I could press a little and get extra yardage. With metal, a smooth- tempo swing delivers the most yardage; if I press for extra, bad things happen.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by misty_mountainhop

Average clubhead speed on the PGA Tour has gone up over 11 MPH in the last 20 years.

Longer drivers.

Lighter drivers.

Larger driver faces.

Improved fitness.

More emphasis on distance.

None of that's the golf ball.

The changes in the ball are related to everything you listed. If you have a ball that spins less off the driver,  you can make longer drivers. If you make longer drivers you'd better make them lighter. If you can make them lighter you can make them bigger. This all puts more emphasis on distance. That is totally on the golf ball.  There's better fitness in all sports, and with the money involved players look at every angle. Fitness might not help you hit a couple drives longer, but they'll help you do it for 4 rounds and play in 30 events.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Originally Posted by WUTiger

I'm conflicted. I like the persimmon feel but the metal performance.

Biggest difference between the two: With persimmon, on the back nine I could press a little and get extra yardage. With metal, a smooth- tempo swing delivers the most yardage; if I press for extra, bad things happen.

If Im hesitant about making the type of swing intended to get extra yardage, then I need to either pull a 3-wood or get a new driver. New drivers rock!!

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Average clubhead speed on the PGA Tour has gone up over 11 MPH in the last 20 years.

Longer drivers.

Lighter drivers.

Larger driver faces.

Improved fitness.

More emphasis on distance.

None of that's the golf ball.

All true but (assuming that video isn't tricked up) I didn't think there was a significant difference between the hickory-shafted long nose and the modern driver. Sure, there was a difference but nothing like as significant as I expected.

Assuming the same, fit, guy hits all the clubs, the fitness doesn't affect things much does it? I'm not sure the driver face size does either - the CoG is the CoG regardless of the overall size of the face.

I'm not disagreeing totally but I assume Jack et al are on the same train of thought when they're arguing for rolling back the ball technology a bit.

Home Course: Wollaton Park GC, Nottingham, U.K.

Ping G400, 9°, Alta CB 55S | Ping G400, 14°, Alta CB 65S | Adams Pro Dhy 18°, 21°, 24°, KBS Hybrid S | Ping S55 5-PW, TT DGS300 | Vokey 252-08, DGS200 | Vokey 256-10 (bent to 58°), DGS200 | Ping Sigma G Anser, 34" | Vice Pro Plus

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