Jump to content
IGNORED

HBO Real Sports: The Downturn in the Golf Industry


bmartin461
Note: This thread is 3524 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Someone could probably write a disseration on the economic, socioeconomic, and demographic reasons the game is in decline but unfortunately I don't see any reversing of the trend nor do I think there are any silver bullets to stem the bleeding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Someone could probably write a disseration on the economic, socioeconomic, and demographic reasons the game is in decline but unfortunately I don't see any reversing of the trend nor do I think there are any silver bullets to stem the bleeding.

What would you consider a "Silver Bullet"?

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

What would you consider a "Silver Bullet"?

Like I said, I don't know what one would be (nor do I think there is one) but obviously the USGA and the like have thought abou the larger hole, tee it forward, etc. initiatives as means of increasing popularity. But to clarify, I guess I mean it as something that would reverse the decline in the game or maybe at least slow the rate of decline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I will try and watch the show but there has been a lot of discussion on this topic already and many opinions given.  I believe that the cost of golf is the biggest factor in fewer people playing the game.  Economic strain also limits discretionary time which makes 4-5 hours for a round of golf difficult even if you are making ends meet.  The fact that golf is a difficult game is IMO the least factor since the advances in equipment have most of us hitting the ball better than ever.

I would not be overly alarmed at the situation since the banner years of Reagan and Clinton poured a lot of wealth into our pockets - and there was the Tiger factor.  The number of golfers and golf courses shot up and then the Great Recession - this is a normal correction.  Our game is still healthy with millions of avid golfers and there will be future peaks and valleys.  The entire issue can be over analyzed to death - just follow the money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Someone could probably write a disseration on the economic, socioeconomic, and demographic reasons the game is in decline but unfortunately I don't see any reversing of the trend nor do I think there are any silver bullets to stem the bleeding.

You don't see any reversing of the trend? Not even a strong economy?

In my bag:

Driver: Titleist TSi3 | 15º 3-Wood: Ping G410 | 17º 2-Hybrid: Ping G410 | 19º 3-Iron: TaylorMade GAPR Lo |4-PW Irons: Nike VR Pro Combo | 54º SW, 60º LW: Titleist Vokey SM8 | Putter: Odyssey Toulon Las Vegas H7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

You don't see any reversing of the trend? Not even a strong economy?

I think all boats rise with the tide. A stronger economy - meaning more people at work with discretionary income- will raise all recreational activities including golf. Not that I buy any, but vintage sports car and ski boat prices are higher than they were a year ago. Without getting too political, I think middle and upper-middle class folks must have discretionary income, and upper middle class to moderately wealthy must have investable income, to sustain public non-subsidized golf facilities.  There will always be the Winged Foots and Augustas, and the Greenbriers and Palm Springs playgrounds for the wealthy, but for the $50-$100 per round courses to thrive, it has to be profitable for investors and affordable for a lot of golfers.

I also think that semi-private courses such as those associated with real estate developments, and mid-priced resorts are extremely dependent on an economy that benefits upper-middle class to moderately wealthy.

I am not personally interested in bigger holes, shorter courses, or modified formats. I do think 9 hole courses are a good idea, that actually was once quite common. I am lucky in that my usual 18 hole course has a 9 hole rate; more courses should do likewise. There is also a local 9 hole course inside and apartment complex that admits the general public. It is shortish tight, but more or less regulation-a good example of efficient use of land, I think. I like good tees, fairways, and greens, but I don't mind shaggy rough  and  unmaintained natrual areas. I suppose I could adapt to less maintenance on the fairways if it meant preservation of the game.

Don

In the bag:

Driver: PING 410 Plus 9 degrees, Alta CB55 S  Fairway: Callaway Rogue 3W PX Even Flow Blue 6.0; Hybrid: Titleist 818H1 21* PX Even Flow Blue 6.0;  Irons: Titleist 718 AP1 5-W2(53*) Shafts- TT AMT Red S300 ; Wedges Vokey SM8 56-10D Putter: Scotty Cameron 2016 Newport 2.5  Ball: Titleist AVX or 2021 ProV1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I agree with NJpatbee in that a decline was nearly certain after the spike we saw in the 80s and 90s. All I need to do is look at the number of courses built in my area during that time period and then the number of people that moved away since then.

As a golfer on a limited budget, I'd like to think that fees won't go up too much on the courses that I play. Things will eventually find equilibrium.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I think all boats rise with the tide. A stronger economy - meaning more people at work with discretionary income- will raise all recreational activities including golf. Not that I buy any, but vintage sports car and ski boat prices are higher than they were a year ago. Without getting too political, I think middle and upper-middle class folks must have discretionary income, and upper middle class to moderately wealthy must have investable income, to sustain public non-subsidized golf facilities.  There will always be the Winged Foots and Augustas, and the Greenbriers and Palm Springs playgrounds for the wealthy, but for the $50-$100 per round courses to thrive, it has to be profitable for investors and affordable for a lot of golfers.

I also think that semi-private courses such as those associated with real estate developments, and mid-priced resorts are extremely dependent on an economy that benefits upper-middle class to moderately wealthy.

I am not personally interested in bigger holes, shorter courses, or modified formats. I do think 9 hole courses are a good idea, that actually was once quite common. I am lucky in that my usual 18 hole course has a 9 hole rate; more courses should do likewise. There is also a local 9 hole course inside and apartment complex that admits the general public. It is shortish tight, but more or less regulation-a good example of efficient use of land, I think. I like good tees, fairways, and greens, but I don't mind shaggy rough  and  unmaintained natrual areas. I suppose I could adapt to less maintenance on the fairways if it meant preservation of the game.

This, and quite a few people also mentioned that they over built golfing facilities in the past couple decades.

Here is my suggestion for getting more families out on the course:

I think they could make a lot more municipal courses that charge $28 per round (walking) on the weekends and have a $200 monthly pass for weekdays. This would be more affordable and entice more people to go just for the exercise.

I see a lot of people walking through my neighborhood, they could just as easily walk through a park like setting of a golf course.

They could make it friendly for families, so the parents and/or kids can play. It's a great way for families to take a long walk together, and optionally play a round. They just need to follow proper etiquette when they are just walking.

Pace of play would be casual on the weekends at these courses.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

You don't see any reversing of the trend? Not even a strong economy?

Even if the economy keeps improving modestly (which is far from a guarantee) it's a zero sum game for the golf industry, IMO, because of the demographics of the country. The golf industry is being supported by baby boomers and as more and more of them start saving more and spending less as they approach retirment, there are far fewer 25-40 year olds with the disposable income, time, or inclination to play in the #s needed. I don't think that will change, even if the economy improves. It's just such a different world than it was from the mid 80s through 2007 when the golf world exploded. The effects will vary widely from locale to locale, but by and large I think golf will revert back to being more of a rich man's game as the wealthy keep getting wealthier and the middle class keeps getting squeezed for all they've got.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Even if the economy keeps improving modestly (which is far from a guarantee) it's a zero sum game for the golf industry, IMO, because of the demographics of the country. The golf industry is being supported by baby boomers and as more and more of them start saving more and spending less as they approach retirment, there are far fewer 25-40 year olds with the disposable income, time, or inclination to play in the #s needed. I don't think that will change, even if the economy improves. It's just such a different world than it was from the mid 80s through 2007 when the golf world exploded. The effects will vary widely from locale to locale, but by and large I think golf will revert back to being more of a rich man's game as the wealthy keep getting wealthier and the middle class keeps getting squeezed for all they've got.

What's funny is in the UK, golf is not just a rich man's game. http://www.golfbusinessnews.com/news/management-topics/golf-participation-in-the-uk-holding-strong/ Here are the results for England by itself: http://www.bgia.org.uk/upload/public/Golf%20APS6Q2%20results.pdf One big thing is that more women are participating. This could be the big one in the Americas and Europe. An aside is that golf is picking up in Asia, and it spills out to people wanting to visit many courses all over the world. http://thefuturescompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/The_Future_of_Golf.pdf

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

This, and quite a few people also mentioned that they over built golfing facilities in the past couple decades.

Here is my suggestion for getting more families out on the course:

I think they could make a lot more municipal courses that charge $28 per round (walking) on the weekends and have a $200 monthly pass for weekdays. This would be more affordable and entice more people to go just for the exercise.

I see a lot of people walking through my neighborhood, they could just as easily walk through a park like setting of a golf course.

They could make it friendly for families, so the parents and/or kids can play. It's a great way for families to take a long walk together, and optionally play a round. They just need to follow proper etiquette when they are just walking.

Pace of play would be casual on the weekends at these courses.

Considering my local muni costs residents $20 a round to walk, I'm not sure I'd pay $200 for a monthly pass, but I would totally do a monthly pass around $100.

In that scenario, I'd probably do 90% of my Albany golfing at the course, as opposed to the 50% I do now.  Not sure that the course would win out in this scenario as I'm mostly a weekend warrior and, tbh, it probably would inspire me to play 9 after work more often.

Christian

:tmade::titleist:  :leupold:  :aimpoint: :gamegolf:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

The pricing for monthly is $25 higher than I would pay, anyway. L.A. county charges $27 on weekdays. It's a fixed fee. They should do weekday monthly rates.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I don't think cost is such a big issue, a person can buy great used gear for little money and there are plenty of affordable courses.

I also don't think time is an issue, 9 holes only takes a little while, 3 par courses can be done in a flash, people have the time if they want it.

The game itself is the biggest problem, it bores most people, it's a slow game no matter how fast people try to make it, it's not about action, it's not about machismo, it's not about looking cool, there is nothing about the game that interests most people IMO, it's what old people do.

The other issue is how hard it is, golf is very unique in that a person cannot play and have fun without a lot of learning, you cannot simply go play and stink, yet have a good time like every other game/sport, you must learn and that takes a lot of time and energy, few people have the interest to do that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I don't think cost is such a big issue, a person can buy great used gear for little money and there are plenty of affordable courses.

I disagree. You can buy solid used gear pretty cheaply, but people don't like to. [quote name="MrDC" url="/t/75965/hbo-real-sports-the-downturn-in-the-golf-industry/30_30#post_1025457"]I also don't think time is an issue, 9 holes only takes a little while, 3 par courses can be done in a flash, people have the time if they want it.[/quote] I'd say that the perceived or expected cost matters as much as the actual cost. Again, you can find decently cheap golf courses, but they're usually bland, and in bad shape, and a lot of people will want to add a cart. Those are all their self-imposed hangups, but they're still real hangups. [quote name="MrDC" url="/t/75965/hbo-real-sports-the-downturn-in-the-golf-industry/30_30#post_1025457"]The game itself is the biggest problem, it bores most people, it's a slow game no matter how fast people try to make it, it's not about action, it's not about machismo, it's not about looking cool, there is nothing about the game that interests most people IMO, it's what old people do. The other issue is how hard it is, golf is very unique in that a person cannot not play and have fun without a lot of learning, you cannot simply go play and stink, yet have a good time like every other game/sport, you must learn and that takes a lot of time and energy, few people have the interest to do that. [/quote] I agree with all that.

In my bag:

Driver: Titleist TSi3 | 15º 3-Wood: Ping G410 | 17º 2-Hybrid: Ping G410 | 19º 3-Iron: TaylorMade GAPR Lo |4-PW Irons: Nike VR Pro Combo | 54º SW, 60º LW: Titleist Vokey SM8 | Putter: Odyssey Toulon Las Vegas H7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I didn't read every comment..but I think suspect a large portion of the lack of revenue into the golf business is directly related to corporations big and small having to answer to how they spend their dollars.

I would be willing to bet tournament revenues from corporate outings are way down at most golf courses, also there has always been a lot of business done on the golf course with salesman or company representatives treating clients and potential clients to golf rounds and outings. Just like so many of the major sports season ticket holders are corporations I suspect a tremendous amount of dollars and scrutiny over expense budgets have scaled back some of the dollars used to play the game.

Taylormade SLDR 10.5

Ping Anser 4-PW

Ping Anser 52,54,60

Ping G25 3 Wood 15

Ping I20 4 Hybrid

Scotty Cameron GoLo 7

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I didn't read every comment..but I think suspect a large portion of the lack of revenue into the golf business is directly related to corporations big and small having to answer to how they spend their dollars. I would be willing to bet tournament revenues from corporate outings are way down at most golf courses, also there has always been a lot of business done on the golf course with salesman or company representatives treating clients and potential clients to golf rounds and outings. Just like so many of the major sports season ticket holders are corporations I suspect a tremendous amount of dollars and scrutiny over expense budgets have scaled back some of the dollars used to play the game.

I agree with a lot of this. In my last job, so much of the business was done on the golf course, hell that's one of the reasons I started playing. We also held/participated in about 6 gold outings a year, all designed to spend time with customers, I'm not sure if it's like that anymore. **side note** I had never seen Top Golf before. That looks like fun.

my get up and go musta got up and went..
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I didn't read every comment..but I think suspect a large portion of the lack of revenue into the golf business is directly related to corporations big and small having to answer to how they spend their dollars.

I would be willing to bet tournament revenues from corporate outings are way down at most golf courses, also there has always been a lot of business done on the golf course with salesman or company representatives treating clients and potential clients to golf rounds and outings. Just like so many of the major sports season ticket holders are corporations I suspect a tremendous amount of dollars and scrutiny over expense budgets have scaled back some of the dollars used to play the game.

I'm not so sure your ideas are relative to the true subject of the decline of golf. All of my contacts within the PGA, PGAtour indicate that they are extremely healthy in sponsorships and revenue gain year after year. These corporate sponsorships are fueling fundraising and their own product, service and consulting services on tv and publications. Basically marketing dollars. There has not been so much as any downturn at all including when tiger was not playing. Almost all these companies that advertise and by tents etc are going after People with money and unfortunately your 20,and 30 something do not have money. Ever see a 25 year drooling over a Cadillac, or shop for insurance and investment brokers for example?

Now to your point smaller businesses can no longer write off golf as an entertaining expense,so that scramble tournament in any town USA will have trouble getting the local restaurant, construction company, local insurance, doctors offices will likely no longer be contributing and playing in that $400-$600 foursome. Thus tournaments including member/ guests may not be a full field.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I'm not so sure your ideas are relative to the true subject of the decline of golf. All of my contacts within the PGA, PGAtour indicate that they are extremely healthy in sponsorships and revenue gain year after year. These corporate sponsorships are fueling fundraising and their own product, service and consulting services on tv and publications. Basically marketing dollars. There has not been so much as any downturn at all including when tiger was not playing. Almost all these companies that advertise and by tents etc are going after People with money and unfortunately your 20,and 30 something do not have money. Ever see a 25 year drooling over a Cadillac, or shop for insurance and investment brokers for example?

Now to your point smaller businesses can no longer write off golf as an entertaining expense,so that scramble tournament in any town USA will have trouble getting the local restaurant, construction company, local insurance, doctors offices will likely no longer be contributing and playing in that $400-$600 foursome. Thus tournaments including member/ guests may not be a full field.

In this area many mills bought multiple memberships at the country club for their employees. Most of the mills are gone and so are those memberships. Other local businesses had company golf outings at various courses much more often than they do now.

Probably for the first time ever even the country club is having financial troubles.

There are other factors in play but the loss of those company memberships didn't help the situation.

Off topic.

On the bright side the little course where I work had more golfers today than any weekday I can remember for a long, long time.

At least a glimmer of hope.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Note: This thread is 3524 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • I kind of like this interpretation especially if you think about it the unplayable rule would probably put you in a better spot.  using back on the line releief.  
    • I did not realize that, I was thinking a more traditional golf club.  
    • Thanks for the feedback. @StuM, we are a "club without real estate" so no facilities or pro. We have a membership of around 185 players and we only play together as a group at our tournaments, which are held at public access courses. A group of us setup the tournaments, collect the money and dole out the prizes.
    • In general, granting free relief anywhere on the course isn't recommended.  Similarly, when marking GUR, the VSGA and MAPGA generally don't mark areas that are well away from the intended playing lines, no matter how poor the conditions.  If you hit it far enough offline, you don't necessarily deserve free relief.  And you don't have to damage clubs, take unplayable relief, take the stroke, and drop the ball in a better spot.
    • If it's not broken don't fix it. If you want to add grooves to it just because of looks that's your choice of course. Grooves are cut into putter faces to reduce skid, the roll faced putter is designed to do the same thing. I'm no expert but it seems counter productive to add grooves to the roll face. Maybe you can have it sand-blasted or something to clean up the face. Take a look at Tigers putter, its beat to hell but he still uses it.     
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...