Shaft Flex doesn't matter! - Mark Crossfield

[saevel25]

Yes, of course.  But can you tell the difference between Project X 5.5 and 6.0?  Or any other shaft in stiff and regular?  Or even the same shaft stepped?  Crossfield argues that flex is not important at all. Yet fitters and golf club manufacturers argue that it does matter.  Unless you set up a blind study with tons of data, the actual effect of shaft on ball flight cannot be determined.

I think he is more arguing, in the numbers there is no significant difference between flexes. He tested out two different shafts, that had a good difference in flex. I will say that I think a more solid test would be to take the lowest flex and highest flex in the same shaft model. It's tough to compare two different shafts because their bend profiles could be different. This is why the lettering on the club really means nothing at all because a stiff flex in one brand isn't the same as another. If you have a bend profile that is overly softer than another shaft, then their stiffer flex might be another brand/model's regular flex.

What I take from this is, as Mark says numerous times, get fitted. Go see which combination works best for you in feel and numbers.

I agree, if you take Project X, and go down half a flex, you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference.

Maybe I'll go to golfsmith this weekend. I'll demo some clubs, and hits some shots with different shaft models and flexes. I'll take pictures of the numbers and write down some thoughts on it.

Honestly I don't care about what flex the club is, I'm just going to hit golf balls.

[saevel25]

My own personal test, with the GC2 launch monitor.

Lucky enough to have the demos of the G30, both in 9 degree lofts. One was in their SR flex (lightest flex shaft), and the other in their Tour 65 Stiff flex.

So by all regards, from Ping's website, these shafts should be worlds apart. I did flex them, the SR was very flexible compared to the Tour 65 shaft.l

Here are the results.

First 4 are with the SR flex, and the last 4 are with the Tour 65 Stiff flex. Here is a summary of the numbers

Club	CHS	Ball S	LA	HA	Spin	Descent	Carry	Offline	Peak H	Smash
G30 - 9.5 degree, TFC 419D - SR	114.8	167.0	14.9	2.7	3168.8	48.5	281.5	-22.3	55.3	1.455
G30 - 9.0 degree, Tour 65 - Stiff	115.5	168.4	16.0	2.6	2741.3	48.0	295.0	-23.0	57.3	1.458

I tried to get 4-5 shots that had similar ball speeds with similar club head speeds to confirm solid strikes.

Ball speed is 1.4 mph more with the Tour 65 shaft. Clubhead speed was also 0.7 mph faster. Smash factor was better as well.  Overall I get more distance with the Stiffer flex.

So number-wise, 11-12% reduction in spin rate. How I was hitting both very similar in strike, as you can see by the Smash Factor.

For me, optimally I might even go with their heavier shaft they offer. They do offer a bit of a stouter shaft than the Tour 65 Stiff, or maybe a custom option.

Punching these numbers into Flightscope to authenticate them a bit,

G30 - 9.5 degree, TFC 419D - SR - Carry 288, Peak H 136 feet (43 yards)

G30 - 9.0 degree, Tour 65 - Stiff - Carry 296, Peak H 136 feet (43 yards)

Now as for the feel. I like the Tour 65 better. The 419D is a softer shaft, but it felt a bit too wild in the swing. Not sure if that would produce a more wild dispersion or not, but personal preference, I feel more comfortable with the Tour 65 that I tested.

[motsco]

My own personal test, with the GC2 launch monitor.  Lucky enough to have the demos of the G30, both in 9 degree lofts. One was in their SR flex (lightest flex shaft), and the other in their Tour 65 Stiff flex.  So by all regards, from Ping's website, these shafts should be worlds apart. I did flex them, the SR was very flexible compared to the Tour 65 shaft.l  Here are the results.  [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/103762/] [/URL][U][COLOR=555555][URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/103763/] [/URL][/COLOR][/U]  First 4 are with the SR flex, and the last 4 are with the Tour 65 Stiff flex. Here is a summary of the numbers [TR] [/TR] [TR] [TD]114.8[/TD] [TD]167.0[/TD] [TD]14.9[/TD] [TD]2.7[/TD] [TD]3168.8[/TD] [TD]48.5[/TD] [TD]281.5[/TD] [TD]-22.3[/TD] [TD]55.3[/TD] [TD]1.455[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]115.5[/TD] [TD]168.4[/TD] [TD]16.0[/TD] [TD]2.6[/TD] [TD]2741.3[/TD] [TD]48.0[/TD] [TD]295.0[/TD] [TD]-23.0[/TD] [TD]57.3[/TD] [TD]1.458[/TD] [/TR]

Club

CHS

Ball S

LA

HA

Spin

Descent

Carry

Offline

Peak H

Smash

G30 - 9.5 degree, TFC 419D - SR

G30 - 9.0 degree, Tour 65 - Stiff

I tried to get 4-5 shots that had similar ball speeds with similar club head speeds to confirm solid strikes.  Ball speed is 1.4 mph more with the Tour 65 shaft. Clubhead speed was also 0.7 mph faster. Smash factor was better as well.  Overall I get more distance with the Stiffer flex. So number-wise, 11-12% reduction in spin rate. How I was hitting both very similar in strike, as you can see by the Smash Factor.  For me, optimally I might even go with their heavier shaft they offer. They do offer a bit of a stouter shaft than the Tour 65 Stiff, or maybe a custom option.  Punching these numbers into Flightscope to authenticate them a bit, G30 - 9.5 degree, TFC 419D - SR - Carry 288, Peak H 136 feet (43 yards) G30 - 9.0 degree, Tour 65 - Stiff - Carry 296, Peak H 136 feet (43 yards) Now as for the feel. I like the Tour 65 better. The 419D is a softer shaft, but it felt a bit too wild in the swing. Not sure if that would produce a more wild dispersion or not, but personal preference, I feel more comfortable with the Tour 65 that I tested.

I can see dif. spin rates. how was left or right ball flight? did on shaft by your eye get to target better then the other?

[saevel25]

I can see dif. spin rates. how was left or right ball flight? did on shaft by your eye get to target better then the other?

Both averaged -23 yards left.

What i have read from other similar comparisons, there is no significant trend for dispersion when it comes to shaft flex. That is totally based on the golfer, and how their swing adapts to the shaft.

[Zeph]

Is this an opinion mainly on drivers, or woods and irons, too?

[JGolfer]

Since most folks like this video, I may be in the minority here.

Nothing against the video author, as I've watched many of his YouTube clips in the past and enjoyed them.  I even subscribe to his channel.

I've noticed HUGE differences between different flex shafts.

Admittedly, they are also different brand/model of shaft as well.

I had a R flex Fujikura VistaPro shaft in a Cleveland driver, and it hit hooks and duckhooks all day long.

I switched it out for a 78 gram R flex Fujikura FitOn 370 shaft, and it hits great now.  And straight.  And further due to the straightness.

Same flex, different model, and definitely different CPM and Torque in those shafts.

I've also got a stock S flex in a Titleist 909D2 driver, and it feels softer than the new R flex shaft in that Cleveland.

And I've got an S flex in a Cobra driver, an Aldila VS Proto By You shaft.   It feels WAY too stiff, to the point that it hits low baby-fades.  It loses distance, since it doesn't kick or square up.

I've used a ton of shafts in my days, and flex definitely affects distance and dispersion both.

Plus, one company's R flex may be stiffer than another company's S flex.

Even with the same make and model, there can be wide disparity.

Another YouTube video shows that some TaylorMade stock shafts vary by as much as a full flex and a half, even though they were supposed to all be the same.

For all we know, these shafts were never tested indepently, so there could be almost no variance between the X and the S flex tested here.

As mentioned earlier, Iike Mark Crossfied's videos on YouTube, but this one proves almost nothing.

Get tested on a launch monitor, then purchase the exact driver you were hitting well, not a same model one off the rack.

[Shooter McGreenkeeper]

i always thought that Flex is Directly related to clubhead speed.

i was told that the Fujikura Speeder changes from S to XS occurs at 115 MPH which is what my clubhead speed is and hence my deliemma.

I currenlty run the Fijikura Speeder S , as the XS felt too Harsh in the hands

[smiley]

Guys,  it's really hard to take Mark Crossfield seriously!

refers to aRBZ  shaft test he did two years ago in which he more or less states the complete opposite

to what he is now saying.

Frankly its like his comments about Taylormade loft up until he went along and found out they were right ( effectively they fitted him properly to the club)

Suddenly its in his bag! The Taylormade loft up video  is also on his channel. The best part of it is the look on Taylormade fitters face when

Mark starts  on about bringing has launch monitor ( Taylormade use Trackman as it doesn't rely on algorithms in the software to determine ballflight spin etc.).

Interestingly when Mark did the RBZ test he was also using trackman.

I've experienced what Wishon talks about in terms of fitting to your swing. I've had a fitting where I couldn't even launch the ball with three shafts,

Two launched very inconsistently and one I just striped it every time.(Ys6)

I'm with JGolfer on this.

[Jack Watson]

Interesting data.

 

[saevel25]

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Interesting data.

 

This has been posted before. I do think that having a proper fitting does have an impact. Yea, stiff versus X-stiff on the same brand doesn't matter that much. 

[RandallT]

3 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

This has been posted before.

Yes it has:

 

[Jack Watson]

Didn't see that thread.

I improved when I went to lighter more flexible shafts.  For some reason for me it makes it easier.  I wouldn't say so much that there was a difference in my ball flight just that I seem to be able to get it more easily.

I haven't hit a lot of different stuff like some.

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Jack Watson]

I want to add that having a certain type of gear over say a year might have a significant influence on a golfer.  Maybe a one time test doesn't tell the full story.  When I had Titleist 905r driver and fairways with Aldila nv green s and mp32 with dgs300 I played fine but I practiced a lot and my tempo got quicker and quicker over time and a couple days off meant I would lose feel/ability to hit consistently.  I think I get quick with stiff feeling (to me) gear.  It's like I have to swing faster or harder to achieve the feel I like and it requires more timing.

Its so much easier now with g25 driver and hybrids and irons with the stock graphite in r.  I play fine to my standards without doing range time.  The clubs are easy to hit.  The shafts have to have something to do with it.

 

[Midpack]

I just came back to golf after a 15 year layoff. I bought new woods without testing with R shafts assuming at my age 62 I couldn't handle S shafts anymore. I hit a few and they felt whipped, so I traded the driver in for a S shafted. Like the guest said in the video, feel is important too, not just numbers. 

My old irons have S shafts, and they still feel OK too.

I also checked after the fact and found my driver clubhead speed is mid 90's. When I was fitted 20 years ago it was 105ish, so I've lost some. Stands to reason as my swing is shorter with my much older back...

Edited May 9, 2017 by Midpack

[Buckeyebowman]

On 7/29/2014 at 2:36 PM, Jakester23 said:

I've honestly never picked up a club and thought to myself that i don't like the feel of that shaft. I've always based how much I do or don't like clubs on how they look and feel/sound. I don't hit a ton of different clubs though.

"Feel" is basically a product of the shaft!

I'll play Devil's advocate here. The guy in the vid w/Crossfield kept emphasizing how the X shaft felt better to him. Well, I guess the shaft flex was important to him in that regard. When you have computers grinding everything down to hard numbers, leaving feel out of it, the argument that shaft flex is not important can be made.

But, we humans "feel" things. Crossfield refers to it himself. It's vitally important. Good feel breeds confidence.

And one time I was at the Golf Galaxy near Cleveland, and discovered 3 sets of Adams irons on the the used club rack. I grabbed the 5 iron from each and went to a hitting bay. One I hit OK. The next I was just crushing it! String straight and long! The last I was hitting weak pop-ups high and right.

This confused me, and I finally got the idea to look at the shafts. That last set had L flex shafts in it. They felt noodley and "dead" when I swung them.

Don't tell me that shaft flex doesn't matter!

[saevel25]

32 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I'll play Devil's advocate here. The guy in the vid w/Crossfield kept emphasizing how the X shaft felt better to him. Well, I guess the shaft flex was important to him in that regard.

Not shaft flex, but how that specific golf shaft would bend and torque during his swing. You can have two golf shafts of the same flex react totally different. 

Example, I got fitted for wedges about 2 years ago. I could not hit a good full swing with the KBS C-Taper X-stiff golf shaft. I could hit very well the KBS Tour X-Stiff. Both from the same company. Both X-stiff flex. One worked and one didn't work well for me. 

34 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Don't tell me that shaft flex doesn't matter!

It doesn't matter. The reason being is there is no industry standard for golf flex. I could easily find you two golf shaft where you would have the same scenario you mentioned, but both would be the same flex. 

The only way golf flex matters is if there was an industry standard and repeatable effects for changing flex of the golf shaft. 

[Jack Watson]

Once at the range I ran into this huge guy training for remax.  I talked a bit with him and he let me try one of his drivers.  Omg telephone pole and heavy!  I managed a ten foot high fading squibber.  No thanks!

This guy was a mountain of a man and I've never seen a person carry it like that when he squared it up.  Impressive.

i also won't name names but I ran into a somewhat famous internet golf pro on course who advocated heavy stiff gear and he let me waggle his driver.  The shaft felt like a noodle!  I almost said something but I just kept to myself.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Buckeyebowman]

On 5/9/2017 at 11:43 PM, saevel25 said:

Not shaft flex, but how that specific golf shaft would bend and torque during his swing. You can have two golf shafts of the same flex react totally different. 

Example, I got fitted for wedges about 2 years ago. I could not hit a good full swing with the KBS C-Taper X-stiff golf shaft. I could hit very well the KBS Tour X-Stiff. Both from the same company. Both X-stiff flex. One worked and one didn't work well for me. 

It doesn't matter. The reason being is there is no industry standard for golf flex. I could easily find you two golf shaft where you would have the same scenario you mentioned, but both would be the same flex. 

The only way golf flex matters is if there was an industry standard and repeatable effects for changing flex of the golf shaft. 

OK. I didn't realize we were engaging in an exercise in semantics.

Wishon has been singing this song for years and I completely agree. There is no "objective" standard for flex, or really any other aspect of shaft performance, and Wishon tells an interesting story about when he tried to introduce some. He got absolute ZERO cooperation from the shaft companies, and felt like he'd be tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail!

So the shaft companies are left to call it however they see it, stick whatever letter on the shaft, and we are left to wonder.

This might have been better titled Shaft flex "designation" doesn't matter.