Embedded Ball Questions

[David in FL]

It is NOT considered a pitch mark IF you drive the ball straight down into the turf without it getting airborne, but I see nothing in the rules that say it can't be embedded from a chip shot.  However, the rules do say that if you take relief from an embedded ball and then play a shot that rolls back into the same pitch mark, you DON'T get relief a second time.

Well that's your own damn fault, you should have repaired the original hole before you hit the second shot! In Tufts's book, failing to do so falls under the principle of stupidity....

[MEfree]

Well that's your own damn fault, you should have repaired the original hole before you hit the second shot!

In Tufts's book, failing to do so falls under the principle of stupidity....

This is (at least) the 2nd time in this thread someone is implying I am stupid.  What about-

13-2/10

Pitch-Mark in Dropping Area Repaired Before Ball Dropped

Q. Through the green, a player's ball was embedded in its own pitch-mark in a closely mown area. He lifted the ball under Rule 25-2 but, before dropping it, repaired the pitch-mark. Is such repair permissible?

A. No. The player was in breach of Rule 13-2 when he improved the area in which his ball was to be dropped by eliminating an irregularity of surface.

[MEfree]

I was working under a similar assumption, but when I lifted the ball, the pitch mark it was sitting in didn't seem fresh (aka it looked like it might be someone's old pitch mark rather than my new one)

My ball looked like pic 1

This was very similar to my case.

Thanks for providing this.  I looked at the 25-2 decisions but didn't think to look at the rule 20 decisions.  Despite Erik answering "that was stupid" for question 2, it seems as if I acted correctly by picking up and then replacing my ball when the subsequent  evidence didn't support that it was in its OWN pitch mark.

So back to my original question- What level of proof or certainty do you need that a ball is embedded IN ITS OWN PITCH MARK to take relief under rule 25-2?  Is there a USGA source that supports Erik's answer of "enough" or Fourputt's answer of " If you have reason to believe that the ball is NOT lying in its own pitch mark, then it isn't."  In my situation, an HD video replay would have clarified the answer, but without it, I couldn't be certain one way or another whether the pitch mark I was embedded in was my own or not.  Using Fourputt's logic of it spinning back into its own mark, I could make an argument that there is "enough" evidence that it was embedded in its own mark.  However, Fourputt's standard wouldn't have been met once some evidence appeared that the mark MAY have been older.

The ROG say you must have "virtual certainty" before assuming your ball is lost in a water hazard and taking relief.  Is there a similar or corresponding phrase for rule 25-2?

Just noticed the " Any doubt as to whether a ball is embedded should be resolved against the player. (Revised)" in 25-2/.05.

Thanks for the help Fourputt and Rulesman!

[David in FL]

This is (at least) the 2nd time in this thread someone is implying I am stupid.  What about-

13-2/10

Pitch-Mark in Dropping Area Repaired Before Ball Dropped

Q. Through the green, a player's ball was embedded in its own pitch-mark in a closely mown area. He lifted the ball under Rule 25-2 but, before dropping it, repaired the pitch-mark. Is such repair permissible?

A. No. The player was in breach of Rule 13-2 when he improved the area in which his ball was to be dropped by eliminating an irregularity of surface.

Try to keep up here.... You mentioned playing a second shot that ends up back in the same pitch mark. Nothing about repairing the pitch mark before re-dropping.

[Ernest Jones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

Is it a pitch mark if the originating shot was a chip?

It is NOT considered a pitch mark IF you drive the ball straight down into the turf without it getting airborne, but I see nothing in the rules that say it can't be embedded from a chip shot.  However, the rules do say that if you take relief from an embedded ball and then play a shot that rolls back into the same pitch mark, you DON'T get relief a second time.

Lol, is this guy for real???

[iacas]

Lol, is this guy for real???

Went over his head like a flying turtle.

[cipher]

I think this has happened a couple times this year, but what if you embed the ball in the hosel? Do you get a free drop? Or do you have to play it as it lies?

[MEfree]

However, the rules do say that if you take relief from an embedded ball and then play a shot that rolls back into the same pitch mark, you DON'T get relief a second time.

Well that's your own damn fault, you should have repaired the original hole before you hit the second shot!

In Tufts's book, failing to do so falls under the principle of stupidity....

Try to keep up here....

You mentioned playing a second shot that ends up back in the same pitch mark. Nothing about repairing the pitch mark before re-dropping.

So when would you fix the pitch mark?  After taking the drop but before hitting the shot?  Fourputt and/or Rulesman can confirm, but I still think that would be a 2 stroke penalty.

[ColinL]

So when would you fix the pitch mark?  After taking the drop but before hitting the shot?  Fourputt and/or Rulesman can confirm, but I still think that would be a 2 stroke penalty.

If the ball were so close to the pitch mark that repairing would improve its lie or the area of your intended swing, there would be a penalty.  If you repaired a pitch mark on your line of play just in  front of your ball it would depend on the kind of shot you were about to play.   No problem if you were going to play a full wedge shot, but not permissible if you were going to putt or play  a running shot over it.  See Decision 13-2/0.5

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-13/#d13-2-0.5

If the pitch mark was to the side, not on your line of play and not affecting your lie or area of intended swing, you could repair it without penalty.

[boogielicious]

So when would you fix the pitch mark?  After taking the drop but before hitting the shot?  Fourputt and/or Rulesman can confirm, but I still think that would be a 2 stroke penalty.

All the answers to all your questions can be found below.  You seem to have a decent command of the English language.  And lucky for you, the two books below are written in English.  Have at it Laddie!  You will be amazed, surprised, astounded at how easy they are to read.  They cover everything, excluding space aliens and alternate universes.

Space Aliens and alternate universes are covered in the book below.  Also a must read, but does not discuss the Rules of Golf at all.