Ball in play, wrong-place

[wadesworld]

In stroke play, let's say a player incorrectly decides to drop where he thinks his ball was lost, before the 5-minutes has expired:

According to the definition of "Ball In Play," the ball is in-play even though incorrectly substituted:

Quote:

It remains in play until it is holed , except when it is lost , out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted , whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play .

However, rule 20-6 allows the player to re-drop a ball improperly dropped:

Quote:

20-6 . Lifting Ball Incorrectly Substituted, Dropped Or Placed

A ball incorrectly substituted , dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly.

So if I understand correctly, the following situation would exist:

1)  The ball is in-play at the moment it was dropped, despite the drop being in the wrong place.  The original ball is also lost the moment the incorrectly-substitued ball was dropped.

2)  As soon as the player dropped the new ball, they became subject to the penalty under 27-1, stroke and distance.  Of course the incorrect drop essentially canceled the distance part.  Additionally, should they play the ball, they would be playing from a wrong place (20-7c) and would be penalized 2-strokes under the general penalty for 27-1.  Thus, the total penalty would be 3-strokes.

3)  Since the ball was dropped significantly forward of proper drop location, there's a significant chance the committee would rule a serious breach occurred.  If they player does not return to the original position and play a second ball under the rules before teeing off (or leaving the green if 18), they could be disqualified.

4)  However, if the player has not played the incorrectly-dropped ball, under 20-6, the player has the opportunity to lift and re-drop the ball in the correct place.  If they do so, they would only be penalized the one-stroke under 27-1.

Does that summarize it correctly?

[turtleback]

In stroke play, let's say a player incorrectly decides to drop where he thinks his ball was lost, before the 5-minutes has expired:

According to the definition of "Ball In Play," the ball is in-play even though incorrectly substituted:

However, rule 20-6 allows the player to re-drop a ball improperly dropped:

So if I understand correctly, the following situation would exist:

1)  The ball is in-play at the moment it was dropped, despite the drop being in the wrong place.  The original ball is also lost the moment the incorrectly-substitued ball was dropped.

2)  As soon as the player dropped the new ball, they became subject to the penalty under 27-1, stroke and distance.  Of course the incorrect drop essentially canceled the distance part.  Additionally, should they play the ball, they would be playing from a wrong place (20-7c) and would be penalized 2-strokes under the general penalty for 27-1.  Thus, the total penalty would be 3-strokes.

3)  Since the ball was dropped significantly forward of proper drop location, there's a significant chance the committee would rule a serious breach occurred.  If they player does not return to the original position and play a second ball under the rules before teeing off (or leaving the green if 18), they could be disqualified.

4)  However, if the player has not played the incorrectly-dropped ball, under 20-6, the player has the opportunity to lift and re-drop the ball in the correct place.  If they do so, they would only be penalized the one-stroke under 27-1.

Does that summarize it correctly?

I do not think so.  In a case like this if it is not corrected it will result in a DQ.  WHERE the incorrect drop was taken is irrelevant.  I cannot conceive of facts under which taking an uncorrected  drop for a lost ball, rather than re-teeing under stroke and distance, would not in and of itself be a serious breach.  So the fact that the drop may have been taken too far forward is irrelevant - it is the fact of the drop that results in DQ, not where it was taken.

As to your point 4, there is no correct place to drop.  Anything short of re-teeing under stroke and distance (or playing a properly played provision, if there was one) is a violation that results in DQ.

[Rulesman]

I do not think so.  In a case like this if it is not corrected it will result in a DQ.

Under what rule?

[wadesworld]

I do not think so.  In a case like this if it is not corrected it will result in a DQ.  WHERE the incorrect drop was taken is irrelevant.  I cannot conceive of facts under which taking an uncorrected  drop for a lost ball, rather than re-teeing under stroke and distance, would not in and of itself be a serious breach.  So the fact that the drop may have been taken too far forward is irrelevant - it is the fact of the drop that results in DQ, not where it was taken.

As to your point 4, there is no correct place to drop.  Anything short of re-teeing under stroke and distance (or playing a properly played provision, if there was one) is a violation that results in DQ.

You're making the assumption the ball was the tee shot.  I would disagree that an incorrect drop would always result in a DQ.  One could certainly drop a ball say 3 paces behind where they were supposed to, get no advantage and not be subject to a DQ.

I had a situation like this occur in a tournament.  I hit a ball towards the left rough, but thought it went much farther left than it did.  I incorrectly assumed it had gone into a water hazard on the far side of the adjacent fairway.  I incorrectly dropped for ball in a water hazard and completed the hole, only later discovering that my original ball was in the rough between the fairways.  Because I dropped some 50 yards to the left of where my ball was, and with a large tree blocking my approach that would not have been there otherwise, the committee ruled I did not commit a serious breach (i.e. an attempt to gain an advantage).  I was wrong and was penalized 3 strokes (lost ball and playing from a wrong place), but was not DQ'd because the committee felt I put myself in a worse position than stroke and distance would have.

As for your last paragraph, again, you're assuming it was the tee shot.  My fault for not saying "drop or re-tee" I suppose, but I was referring to putting another ball in play from the spot last played, whether that meant dropping or re-teeing.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

In stroke play, let's say a player incorrectly decides to drop where he thinks his ball was lost, before the 5-minutes has expired:

According to the definition of "Ball In Play," the ball is in-play even though incorrectly substituted:

Quote:

It remains in play until it is holed , except when it is lost , out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted , whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play .

However, rule 20-6 allows the player to re-drop a ball improperly dropped:

Quote:

20-6 . Lifting Ball Incorrectly Substituted, Dropped Or Placed

A ball incorrectly substituted , dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly.

So if I understand correctly, the following situation would exist:

1)  The ball is in-play at the moment it was dropped, despite the drop being in the wrong place.  The original ball is also lost the moment the incorrectly-substitued ball was dropped.

2)  As soon as the player dropped the new ball, they became subject to the penalty under 27-1, stroke and distance.  Of course the incorrect drop essentially canceled the distance part.  Additionally, should they play the ball, they would be playing from a wrong place (20-7c) and would be penalized 2-strokes under the general penalty for 27-1.  Thus, the total penalty would be 3-strokes.

3)  Since the ball was dropped significantly forward of proper drop location, there's a significant chance the committee would rule a serious breach occurred.  If they player does not return to the original position and play a second ball under the rules before teeing off (or leaving the green if 18), they could be disqualified.

4)  However, if the player has not played the incorrectly-dropped ball, under 20-6, the player has the opportunity to lift and re-drop the ball in the correct place.  If they do so, they would only be penalized the one-stroke under 27-1.

Does that summarize it correctly?

1)  Yes

2)  In most cases, while you are correct about the 2 stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place,

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

In stroke play, let's say a player incorrectly decides to drop where he thinks his ball was lost, before the 5-minutes has expired:

According to the definition of "Ball In Play," the ball is in-play even though incorrectly substituted:

Quote:

It remains in play until it is holed , except when it is lost , out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted , whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play .

However, rule 20-6 allows the player to re-drop a ball improperly dropped:

Quote:

20-6 . Lifting Ball Incorrectly Substituted, Dropped Or Placed

A ball incorrectly substituted , dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly.

So if I understand correctly, the following situation would exist:

1)  The ball is in-play at the moment it was dropped, despite the drop being in the wrong place.  The original ball is also lost the moment the incorrectly-substitued ball was dropped.

2)  As soon as the player dropped the new ball, they became subject to the penalty under 27-1, stroke and distance.  Of course the incorrect drop essentially canceled the distance part.  Additionally, should they play the ball, they would be playing from a wrong place (20-7c) and would be penalized 2-strokes under the general penalty for 27-1.  Thus, the total penalty would be 3-strokes.

3)  Since the ball was dropped significantly forward of proper drop location, there's a significant chance the committee would rule a serious breach occurred.  If they player does not return to the original position and play a second ball under the rules before teeing off (or leaving the green if 18), they could be disqualified.

4)  However, if the player has not played the incorrectly-dropped ball, under 20-6, the player has the opportunity to lift and re-drop the ball in the correct place.  If they do so, they would only be penalized the one-stroke under 27-1.

Does that summarize it correctly?

Yes.  For item 3, if the player thinks that it might be a serious breach, then he should correct his mistake.  If the distance (or other possible advantage) gained was minimal, then it would not be necessary to make the correction.

[turtleback]

You're making the assumption the ball was the tee shot.  I would disagree that an incorrect drop would always result in a DQ.  One could certainly drop a ball say 3 paces behind where they were supposed to, get no advantage and not be subject to a DQ.

I had a situation like this occur in a tournament.  I hit a ball towards the left rough, but thought it went much farther left than it did.  I incorrectly assumed it had gone into a water hazard on the far side of the adjacent fairway.  I incorrectly dropped for ball in a water hazard and completed the hole, only later discovering that my original ball was in the rough between the fairways.  Because I dropped some 50 yards to the left of where my ball was, and with a large tree blocking my approach that would not have been there otherwise, the committee ruled I did not commit a serious breach (i.e. an attempt to gain an advantage).  I was wrong and was penalized 3 strokes (lost ball and playing from a wrong place), but was not DQ'd because the committee felt I put myself in a worse position than stroke and distance would have.

As for your last paragraph, again, you're assuming it was the tee shot.  My fault for not saying "drop or re-tee" I suppose, but I was referring to putting another ball in play from the spot last played, whether that meant dropping or re-teeing.

You are correct that an incorrect drop will not always result in a serious breach and a DQ.  But we are not talking about dropping a ball a few paces away from the "correct" spot, we are talking about dropping when dropping near where it is thought the ball is lost is not a legal option.  Note that it is YOU who wrote that he dropped near where he thought the ball was lost.  You never said a word about going back to the place the "lost" ball was played from.  So now I am totally confused about the facts because what you are saying now does not seem to match up with what you wrote before.  You keep talking about drops but you are not making it clear of we are talking about the drop you mentioned, near where the ball was lost, or a drop in some other place.

Under what rule?

Doesn't taking a drop instead of following the rule result in a serious breach almost by definition?  Or maybe you have a better handle on what the facts are in this case because I am now finding it very difficult to tell what the actual facts are in this case.

[Rulesman]

Doesn't taking a drop instead of following the rule result in a serious breach almost by definition?

You made a blanket statement " WHERE the incorrect drop was taken is irrelevant " and it is the fact of the drop that results in DQ, not where it was taken". Where the ball was dropped in relation to where the original was played may be in fact a major consideration.

You said ' in a case like this ' and then say you don't know the facts of the case. In fact you presume the original was played from the tee. This was never stated. We don't know what this case was like.

[turtleback]

You made a blanket statement "WHERE the incorrect drop was taken is irrelevant" and  it is the fact of the drop that results in DQ, not where it was taken". Where the ball was dropped in relation to where the original was played may be in fact a major consideration.

You said 'in a case like this' and then say you don't know the facts of the case. In fact you presume the original was played from the tee. This was never stated. We don't know what this case was like.

I was misled by the fact that the only location ever mentioned for the drop was near where the ball was thought lost.  That was the only incorrect drop for which a location was specified, and if the drop was taken near where the ball was thought lost then played the penalty is DQ, no?

Look at item 2 of the list in the original post.  What ball can he be referring to since the only drop is the one at the point where the ball is thought lost?  Then he goes on and starts talking about 3 penalty strokes if the ball is played before correcting.  My point is that the ball was lost and the shot was not replayed under stroke and distance.  Which should be a DQ.

[ColinL]

You are correct that an incorrect drop will not always result in a serious breach and a DQ.  But we are not talking about dropping a ball a few paces away from the "correct" spot, we are talking about dropping when dropping near where it is thought the ball is lost is not a legal option......

You seem to be assuming that dropping near where a ball was likely to be is going to be a serious breach regardless of the relative positions of where the previous shot was played and where the ball was likely to be.  This is not the case.  Your ball might be lost further from the hole than where you played your previous shot if, for example, it rebounded off a tree in which case dropping where you think your ball was likely to be is probably disadvantageous.     In determining whether a ball played from a wrong place was a serious breach, you have to consider the particular situation: you cannot generalise like that.

[wadesworld]

I was misled by the fact that the only location ever mentioned for the drop was near where the ball was thought lost.  That was the only incorrect drop for which a location was specified, and if the drop was taken near where the ball was thought lost then played the penalty is DQ, no?

Look at item 2 of the list in the original post.  What ball can he be referring to since the only drop is the one at the point where the ball is thought lost?  Then he goes on and starts talking about 3 penalty strokes if the ball is played before correcting.  My point is that the ball was lost and the shot was not replayed under stroke and distance.  Which should be a DQ.

I think we're kind of talking past each other.

It is true that taking an incorrect drop and playing from a wrong place is quite likely to be considered a serious breach and ultimately result in a DQ.  However, as the others have verified, neither the penalty for the incorrect drop nor the penalty for playing from a wrong place are a DQ.  The DQ is the penalty for failing to correct a serious breach.  While rare, it is possible to make an improper drop and play from a wrong place and it not be considered a serious breach and therefore no DQ would result.

[ColinL]

I'm not sure that it is all that rare.  After all, if you accidentally move your ball even a very short distance and fail to replace it, you are playing from a wrong place. Highly unlikely to be a serious breach.  You drop a ball under the Rules, it rolls more than 2 club lengths and you fail to re-drop - same thing.

[wadesworld]

I'm not sure that it is all that rare.  After all, if you accidentally move your ball even a very short distance and fail to replace it, you are playing from a wrong place. Highly unlikely to be a serious breach.  You drop a ball under the Rules, it rolls more than 2 club lengths and you fail to re-drop - same thing.

Good points.  Thanks.

[turtleback]

I think we're kind of talking past each other.

It is true that taking an incorrect drop and playing from a wrong place is quite likely to be considered a serious breach and ultimately result in a DQ.  However, as the others have verified, neither the penalty for the incorrect drop nor the penalty for playing from a wrong place are a DQ.  The DQ is the penalty for failing to correct a serious breach.  While rare, it is possible to make an improper drop and play from a wrong place and it not be considered a serious breach and therefore no DQ would result.

You are right, we must be talking past each other since everyone else seems to understand the situation you posted differently than I do.  Your original post said that he dropped near where he thought the ball was lost , let's call that Drop 1.  There is no legal option to drop the ball near where it was lost  The only legal option is to replay the shot that put you there.  Doing so will involve a drop as near as possible to the point from which the previous shot was played call that Drop 2.  Two separate courses of action.

IF he takes Drop 1 and continues play from there with no corrective action then I still maintain that is a serious breach and will result in DQ.  I would be interested to know what factors could make this not be a serious breach.

OTOH, if we are talking about Drop 2 and it is taken in the wrong place then yes, I can see how this could occur and NOT be a serious breach.  As in Tiger's drop at the Masters.  He was never in danger of being DQed for the drop, DQ was only an issue because of the possibility he signed for a lower score.

[wadesworld]

Quote:

Your original post said that he dropped near where he thought the ball was lost , let's call that Drop 1.  There is no legal option to drop the ball near where it was lost  The only legal option is to replay the shot that put you there.  Doing so will involve a drop as near as possible to the point from which the previous shot was played call that Drop 2.  Two separate courses of action.

Agreed.  My main questions with Drop 1 were:

A)  Is the ball in play the moment he dropped it, despite it being in a wrong place.  Answer:  Yes

B)  Given the 5 minutes had not expired, is the ball lost when he dropped the ball in a wrong place?  Answer:  Yes

C)  Does rule 20-6 give him the opportunity to correct the drop in a wrong place if a stroke has not been made?  Answer:  Yes

The key thing I was trying to determine is if the ball was in play.  On another forum, golfers are arguing that a drop not made under an applicable rule does not count and the ball is not in play.  Their argument is, since 27-1 does not allow you to drop anywhere other than the original spot, if you do drop somewhere else and make a stroke, the stroke does not count because the drop was invalid.  What this discussion has verified is that is not true (and why I came here to verify my understanding was correct).  If you make a correct drop according to the procedures of 20-2, even if it is in the wrong place, the drop counts and the ball is in play.  You can correct it without penalty, but that doesn't mean it's not in play.

Quote:

IF he takes Drop 1 and continues play from there with no corrective action then I still maintain that is a serious breach and will result in DQ.  I would be interested to know what factors could make this not be a serious breach.

No real argument there.  If a golfer hits his tee shot 150 yards downrange and it goes out of bounds and he drops at the point it goes out, I think he would definitely be subject to a serious breach and DQ.  I don't think anyone was saying it wouldn't.  Folks were saying that there are SOME circumstances where one can drop and play from a wrong place, be assessed the penalty for doing so and not be subject to DQ, as you point out with your Tiger example below.

Quote:

OTOH, if we are talking about Drop 2 and it is taken in the wrong place then yes, I can see how this could occur and NOT be a serious breach.  As in Tiger's drop at the Masters.  He was never in danger of being DQed for the drop, DQ was only an issue because of the possibility he signed for a lower score.

Agreed on the Tiger case.  Despite him playing from a wrong place, there was no significant advantage gained and I don't think a serious breach was ever mentioned in the interviews with the officials.  On the other hand, context matters.  Had Tiger's original position been in the rough and his "two-yards back" drop been in the fairway, then he likely would have been guilty of a serious breach and eligible for DQ on that basis.

[turtleback]

I think the part that confused me was this:

Quote:

2)  As soon as the player dropped the new ball, they became subject to the penalty under 27-1, stroke and distance.  Of course the incorrect drop essentially canceled the distance part.  Additionally, should they play the ball, they would be playing from a wrong place (20-7c) and would be penalized 2-strokes under the general penalty for 27-1.  Thus, the total penalty would be 3-strokes.

I still have a hard time parsing what this means.  You are saying that if he incorrectly plays the dropped ball (my Drop 1) he incurs 3 strokes of penalty, whereas my point is that he is DQed in this situation.

[Rulesman]

whereas my point is that he is DQed in this situation.

Are you suggesting that playing from the wrong place is always DQ? If so where in the rules does it say this?

I can only find a reference to DQ for a serious Breach.

The use of the word 'if' in Decision 27-1/3 makes it clear that not every wrong place breach is a serious breach.

27-1/3

Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played

Q. A player, unable to find his ball, drops another ball in the area where his original ball was lost and plays that ball. What is the ruling?

A. In match play, the player loses the hole – Rule 20-7b .

In stroke play, the player incurs the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. If the breach was a serious one, he must rectify the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c ; otherwise, he is disqualified.

[turtleback]

Are you suggesting that playing from the wrong place is always DQ? If so where in the rules does it say this?

I can only find a reference to DQ for a serious Breach.

The use of the word 'if' in Decision 27-1/3 makes it clear that not every wrong place breach is a serious breach.

27-1/3

Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played

Q.A player, unable to find his ball, drops another ball in the area where his original ball was lost and plays that ball. What is the ruling?

A.In match play, the player loses the hole – Rule 20-7b.

In stroke play, the player incurs the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. If the breach was a serious one, he must rectify the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c; otherwise, he is disqualified.

The decision says the player  incurs the stroke and distance penalty plus the 2 stroke penalty.  So yes, having hit the ball the player can go back to the previous spot, (i.e., belatedly follow the rule).

But we re talking of the situaton where he does not go bck to the previous spot and rehit.  So if he does not, how does he, or an official consulted later for a ruling, add "stroke and distance" to his score?  The only way that penalty can be incorporated in his score is if he actually goes back and re-hits.  Otherwise what is his score, a 83 plus a stroke and distance?

Can you give me an example of a situation in which a ball is lost, the player drops in the area where it was lost, plays from there with no correction and no adding a stroke and distance penalty (assuming that was even possible), could possibly not result in a DQing serious breach?  IOW it is virtually by definition a serious breach because it puts the player in a position of not having a valid score and no way of adjusting the score to make it valid, since do do so required an action (the stroke and distance penalty) that cannot be retroactively fixed.

How can a player who has made it impossible to have a valid score not be guilty of a serious breach?  And if there was not a serious breach, how do you determine his score for that hole?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Are you suggesting that playing from the wrong place is always DQ? If so where in the rules does it say this?

I can only find a reference to DQ for a serious Breach.

The use of the word 'if' in Decision 27-1/3 makes it clear that not every wrong place breach is a serious breach.

27-1/3

Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played

Q.A player, unable to find his ball, drops another ball in the area where his original ball was lost and plays that ball. What is the ruling?

A.In match play, the player loses the hole – Rule 20-7b.

In stroke play, the player incurs the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. If the breach was a serious one, he must rectify the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c; otherwise, he is disqualified.

The decision says the player  incurs the stroke and distance penalty plus the 2 stroke penalty.  So yes, having hit the ball the player can go back to the previous spot, (i.e., belatedly follow the rule).

But we re talking of the situaton where he does not go bck to the previous spot and rehit.  So if he does not, how does he, or an official consulted later for a ruling, add "stroke and distance" to his score?  The only way that penalty can be incorporated in his score is if he actually goes back and re-hits.  Otherwise what is his score, a 83 plus a stroke and distance?

Can you give me an example of a situation in which a ball is lost, the player drops in the area where it was lost, plays from there with no correction and no adding a stroke and distance penalty (assuming that was even possible), could possibly not result in a DQing serious breach?  IOW it is virtually by definition a serious breach because it puts the player in a position of not having a valid score and no way of adjusting the score to make it valid, since do do so required an action (the stroke and distance penalty) that cannot be retroactively fixed.

How can a player who has made it impossible to have a valid score not be guilty of a serious breach?  And if there was not a serious breach, how do you determine his score for that hole?

Yes I can.  I've watched a player play a stroke, hit the ball off the toe of the club and only move it 30 feet, mostly to the right, but into deep native rough.  when he didn't find the ball, he dropped and played from outside of the deep grass, but still about 15 feet from the place he played from.  Definitely a wrong place, but just as definitely not a serious breach, as he was only about 5 feet forward from the previous spot.