• Announcements

    • iacas

      Create a Signature!   02/05/2016

      Everyone, go here and edit your signature this week: http://thesandtrap.com/settings/signature/.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
bkuehn1952

Should a competitor be forced to assist another competitor?

0   33 votes

  1. 1. Should a competitor be forced to assist another competitor?

    • Yes
      2
    • No
      31

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

84 posts in this topic

Often the results of a tournament are greatly affected by timing.  If one has an early starting time, one may benefit from calm winds that pick-up in intensity as the day proceeds.  No one expects the early tee times to race around the course so that the following groups can play before the winds increase.  "Luck of the draw" means sometimes your starting time is a plus and other times it is a minus.

Now we jump forward to the closing hole of the PGA.  Phil Mickelson trails Rory by 2 shots.  Arguably, it is going to be harder for Rory to play well in total darkness.  Is it right to expect Phil, who still has a chance of catching Rory, to stand aside and help Rory play the hole in better light?  Yes, Rory could have said it was too dark and he could come back in the morning.  That was his choice.  It should have been Phil's choice whether to stand aside and allow Rory to "hit up" twice.  My impression was Phil and Rick were told the trailing group was going to "hit up" and it was not their choice.

Allowing a competitor to have a better chance to finish is a sporting gesture.  Being forced to allow one's competitor to have a better chance is wrong.

What does everyone else think?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Want to get rid of this advertisement? Sign up (or log in) today! It's free!

I thought it was stupid of Rory. I felt that he was rushed. He hit two bad shots in a row on 18. The drive that almost went in the water almost cost him a tie.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forced? I'm going to give it some thought but probably vote "no" in the poll.

Is it the right thing to do? The sporting thing to do? To look for a player's ball, to let them hit up if they're running out of daylight, etc.? Absolutely.

Besides, Phil probably didn't want to have to stick around until tomorrow morning either. Letting them hit up cost Phil nothing, except delaying for a minute walking up the fairway.

Let's not turn into a bunch of pricks in the name of "win at all costs" please. Golf is one of the few honest sports left; maybe the only one.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Often the results of a tournament are greatly affected by timing.  If one has an early starting time, one may benefit from calm winds that pick-up in intensity as the day proceeds.  No one expects the early tee times to race around the course so that the following groups can play before the winds increase.  "Luck of the draw" means sometimes your starting time is a plus and other times it is a minus.

Now we jump forward to the closing hole of the PGA.  Phil Mickelson trails Rory by 2 shots.  Arguably, it is going to be harder for Rory to play well in total darkness.  Is it right to expect Phil, who still has a chance of catching Rory, to stand aside and help Rory play the hole in better light?  Yes, Rory could have said it was too dark and he could come back in the morning.  That was his choice.  It should have been Phil's choice whether to stand aside and allow Rory to "hit up" twice.  My impression was Phil and Rick were told the trailing group was going to "hit up" and it was not their choice.

Allowing a competitor to have a better chance to finish is a sporting gesture.  Being forced to allow one's competitor to have a better chance is wrong.

What does everyone else think?

yea, I thought that whole sequence was a little strange. As a competitor, I would have done everything within the rules to make Rory's experience as difficult as possible... "gamesmanship" if you will. I was really puzzled that the final hole played out the way it did.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

As a competitor, I would have done everything within the rules to make Rory's experience as difficult as possible... "gamesmanship" if you will.

Really?

So you'd be content to be known as "that huge *******" among fans and your fellow PGA Tour players if it might help you eke out another victory or two along your career?

This is not the game of golf that I love so much.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Forced? I'm going to give it some thought but probably vote "no" in the poll.

Is it the right thing to do? The sporting thing to do? To look for a player's ball, to let them hit up if they're running out of daylight, etc.? Absolutely.

Besides, Phil probably didn't want to have to stick around until tomorrow morning either. Letting them hit up cost Phil nothing, except delaying for a minute walking up the fairway.

Let's not turn into a bunch of pricks in the name of "win at all costs" please. Golf is one of the few honest sports left; maybe the only one.

I don't think its about turning into a bunch of pricks, although I see your point. For me, its the fact that at the end of the day, golf is still a competition sport, and this wasn't some charity event, this was a major. Given how close the match was going into the final hole, in my opinion, the situation merits more of a "win at all costs" mentality. Not a Coach Jason Kidd - intentionally spill water on the court to stall time - win at all costs... but more of a less courteous, win at all costs. If u catch my drift.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

I don't think its about turning into a bunch of pricks, although I see your point. For me, its the fact that at the end of the day, golf is still a competition sport, and this wasn't some charity event, this was a major.

All the more reason to not be a dick and to show some class and sportsmanship.

Given how close the match was going into the final hole, in my opinion, the situation merits more of a "win at all costs" mentality.

I'm going to stop responding to you now. We will not agree on this, and we will not convince each other to change our minds.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Really? So you'd be content to be known as "that huge *******" among fans and your fellow PGA Tour players if it might help you eke out another victory or two along your career? This is not the game of golf that I love so much.

I agree with you and honestly, wouldn't have expected much different from Phil. But there's a poster here with a handle that asks a very interesting question: what would Tiger do? Dunno for sure but not unreasonable to think he would not have been as gracious.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Really?

So you'd be content to be known as "that huge *******" among fans and your fellow PGA Tour players if it might help you eke out another victory or two along your career?

If leveraging the rules of competition so that it preserves a competitive advantage which I obtained by playing fairly and observing the rules, makes me out to be a "huge ********" in your eyes, then you and I simply have a different philosophical approach to winning.

Really?

...

This is not the game of golf that I love so much.

I mean, I can't argue with you here... as much as I like golf, the game means more to you than it does to me. So you are weighing things in a manner that I'm probably not even considering when arriving at an opinion on this topic. You have a much longer history with the game than I, so its kind of like a wine connoisseur trying to convince a 16 year old to appreciate certain nuances that he isn't even aware of yet.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Voted no, but anybody who does what some are suggesting (gamesmanship, making Rory play in the dark) would come out of it as a giant jerk. You think public perception of Bubba turned worse after his long drive contest, that paled in comparison to what would happen after this situation.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Forced? I'm going to give it some thought but probably vote "no" in the poll.

Is it the right thing to do? The sporting thing to do? To look for a player's ball, to let them hit up if they're running out of daylight, etc.? Absolutely.

Besides, Phil probably didn't want to have to stick around until tomorrow morning either. Letting them hit up cost Phil nothing, except delaying for a minute walking up the fairway.

Let's not turn into a bunch of pricks in the name of "win at all costs" please. Golf is one of the few honest sports left; maybe the only one.

Voted no, but anybody who does what some are suggesting (gamesmanship, making Rory play in the dark) would come out of it as a giant jerk. You think public perception of Bubba turned worse after his long drive contest, that paled in comparison to what would happen after this situation.

Agree with both.

Sometimes you do what's right, even if it isn't mandated.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Forced? I'm going to give it some thought but probably vote "no" in the poll.

Is it the right thing to do? The sporting thing to do? To look for a player's ball, to let them hit up if they're running out of daylight, etc.? Absolutely.

Besides, Phil probably didn't want to have to stick around until tomorrow morning either. Letting them hit up cost Phil nothing, except delaying for a minute walking up the fairway.

Let's not turn into a bunch of pricks in the name of "win at all costs" please. Golf is one of the few honest sports left; maybe the only one.

I don't think its about turning into a bunch of pricks, although I see your point. For me, its the fact that at the end of the day, golf is still a competition sport, and this wasn't some charity event, this was a major. Given how close the match was going into the final hole, in my opinion, the situation merits more of a "win at all costs" mentality. Not a Coach Jason Kidd - intentionally spill water on the court to stall time - win at all costs... but more of a less courteous, win at all costs. If u catch my drift.

Amazing.  Win at all costs?  Is that what golf means to you?  Your idea of "courteous" and mine are polar opposites.  How can you possibly be courteous while stalling another competitor to put him in a bad situation?  That wouldn't be courtesy, that would be rude and boorish, and unsportsmanlike in the extreme.

Quote:

Originally Posted by divot dave

I don't think its about turning into a bunch of pricks, although I see your point. For me, its the fact that at the end of the day, golf is still a competition sport, and this wasn't some charity event, this was a major.

All the more reason to not be a dick and to show some class and sportsmanship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by divot dave

Given how close the match was going into the final hole, in my opinion, the situation merits more of a "win at all costs" mentality.

I'm going to stop responding to you now. We will not agree on this, and we will not convince each other to change our minds.

I'm with Erik 110% on this.  Golf is about applauding your fellow competitor when he sinks a putt to beat you.  It's damn sure not about some twisted idea of gamesmanship that deliberately puts his opponent at a disadvantage.  It's a bush league tactic, and using it as DD suggests would be contrary to the history and traditions of the game of golf.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was the right thing to do. I think if anyone had the time to really think about the decision, they'd be hard-pressed to say otherwise. We all want to win, but also to do so relatively fairly and with class.
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Golf is a game to me were the rules are there, not to be leveraged against your opponent, but to create an equal playing field.

At the end of the day, golf is a game were Jack quieted the crowd to let Tom Watson have the same courtesy of a quiet crowd, the same conditions he had for his putt, for his winning putt in the British Open, Its a game were players call penalties on themselves when no one else saw that the ball moved. Golf has always been a game of good sportsmanship, and self officiating. Its a game that holds its players to a higher standard than any other sport.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

I'm going to stop responding to you now. We will not agree on this, and we will not convince each other to change our minds.

All due respect - perhaps you should stop responding if what you're trying to do is get me to change my mind... I'm certainly not trying to get you to change yours. I was under the impression that this was a discussion, where there is room for civil minds to disagree and still positively contribute to the topic.

Voted no, but anybody who does what some are suggesting (gamesmanship, making Rory play in the dark) would come out of it as a giant jerk. You think public perception of Bubba turned worse after his long drive contest, that paled in comparison to what would happen after this situation.

yeah, if it played out like you describe, it definitely would look bad. I'm not sure exactly how it all went down, but it appeared as though Ricky had already agreed to let them play thru, Phil was well on his way to toward his 2nd shot when he was run down by an official. That indicates to me that Phil had no issues with letting Rory play in the dark if he wanted to. In the situation, Phil did the right thing in agreeing (albeit begrudgingly) to letting them play as a 4 some. But the question on the floor is should a competitor be forced... which for reasons previously stated, I vote no. I honestly think Phil would vote no too.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Golf is a game to me were the rules are there, not to be leveraged against your opponent, but to create an equal playing field.

At the end of the day, golf is a game were Jack quieted the crowd to let Tom Watson have the same courtesy of a quiet crowd, the same conditions he had for his putt, for his winning putt in the British Open, Its a game were players call penalties on themselves when no one else saw that the ball moved. Golf has always been a game of good sportsmanship, and self officiating. Its a game that holds its players to a higher standard than any other sport.

Thats a good point... see, these are nuances that I'm just not familiar with. Haven't been around the sport long enough. No need to villlainize me because my philosophy of competition was forged and fermented in the context of a different sport(s) - or another way of saying it - hasn't been influenced by the game of golf ... yet.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

Ummmm-You quoted him saying he was not going to respond more-he has not-and you tell him to stop responding? OKay man. He was disagreeing with you AS ALMOST ALL PEOPLE WILL I think. THe poll question is poorly worded with the word 'force' in there.-If it said 'should' the results would be quite different.[quote name="divot dave" url="/t/76467/should-a-competitor-be-forced-to-assist-another-competitor#post_1038703"] All due respect - perhaps you should stop responding if what you're trying to do is get me to change my mind... I'm certainly not trying to get you to change yours. I was under the impression that this was a discussion, where there is room for civil minds to disagree and still positively contribute to the topic.[/quote] BTW your reputation is about to tank and not for that but for your win at all costs approach.-Youre now gonna be 'that guy'. The jerk.-The 'gamesmanship win at all costs' jerk. Please change your mind for your sake and those three beautiful children in your picture.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards and Achievements

If leveraging the rules of competition so that it preserves a competitive advantage which I obtained by playing fairly and observing the rules, makes me out to be a "huge ********" in your eyes, then you and I simply have a different philosophical approach to winning.

And this why we have so many rules and rules with in the rules ... Hopefully we do not add a rule to accommodate this situation ... I would have let him play up ... What Ricky and Phil did was the right thing ...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2016 TST Partners

    GAME Golf
    PING Golf
    Golf Evolution
  • Posts

    • The Films and Movies Thread
      A little late finding this - X-Men, Days of Future Past Quicksilver scene in realtime.   
    • Jack or Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?
      I'd be curious to see just what Jack said. I think "10 or 15" having a chance to win for typical PGA Tour events in any era is an exaggeration of the relative weakness of the fields. Even before there was a depth of talent in the U.S. and the 'golf craze' here took off, the money drew top level golfers from overseas who were following the better money available here in tournaments and pro positions. I accept there's been a general strengthening of fields as the expansion in prize money and the total population of competitive golfers (see chart below) have forced top golfers to have more preparation and polish, but I don't think there's really ever been a lack of generally elite level competition on the PGA tour or at the Majors since about the 20's or 30's. I think if the effect of a tiny number of truly top level competitors taking on a bunch of club pro relative 'dubs' was as strong as you seem to think that most of the top multiple Major winners would be golfers from the early days of the tour. But to me it looks pretty balanced across eras. I'll see if I can work up some actual numbers. By the 1920s there were likely about 1.5 million golfers (in the U.S. alone), which is a pretty healthy base from which to draw potential 'top talent'. Total participation in golf from when Jack started to when Tiger started roughly tripled. As far as rating 'achievement' you play in the era you play with the existing disadvantages and advantages. IMO, if Jack had grown up as a contemporary of Tiger with the same advantages of technology and swing instruction / coaching and the same disadvantages of a greater number of potential competitors that they would both have risen to elite levels and would have regularly been battling for Amateur and Major Championships. I don't think the potential ranges of human abilities / talent really change much in a few generations. Would I consider Tiger more competitively vetted, yes. Do I think that means his talent level and achievements were automatically greater than Jack's? No. I could see valuing Tiger's win total more than Jack's (and certainly Snead's with some 'iffy' events in the total) because of the relative talent base depth, but not sure that transfers as readily to the performance in Majors, particularly the Opens. I think it would have been amazing and exciting to be able to see them compete at their peaks rather than a boring foregone conclusion.  
    • 2016 Waste Management Phoenix Open Discussion
      I really like Hideki's takeaway... Nice smooth swing.
    • 2016 Waste Management Phoenix Open Discussion
      Fowler is one the fastest on tour, anyone is going to look slower than usual playing alongside him.
    • AMA Thread (@iacas)
      I mowed lawns when I was a kid. I don't think that quite counts. I delivered local "coupon newspapers" (the "Greensheets") when I was also a kid. That sucked, but I was paid something like nine cents per paper delivered. I hated it though. They weighed a lot, and I had to pick them up every Friday and deliver them for a few hours every Saturday morning. Year-round. I washed cars for a month (on weekends) at a local car dealership. I got to drive a Dodge Viper around the block. They didn't care that I was 15 and didn't have my driver's license yet… Yeah, I still don't know what they were thinking on that one. I had my learner's permit, but… so what? I was driving cars from the lot into the street and down to the washing bay half a block away, and then back up to the lot. I worked at the Erie Zoo (which ran the ice rink next door during the winter) for about a full year. I often ran the carousel. I still hate certain songs, particularly the ones we played during the annual Zoo Boo. "I put a spell on you…" makes me irrationally angry.  (Not really, but I still hate hearing the song.) That was an actual job, with a W2 or a W9 or whatever stuff you fill out. Concessions and rides and whatnot at the Erie Zoo. I'd like to think I was a good employee. I once even got a speeding ticket (the cops loved to sit, I'd later discover, at the base of a very large hill near the zoo) and still made it to work and punched in before my start time.
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Images

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. onthehunt526
      onthehunt526
      (29 years old)
  • Blog Entries