HBO Real Sports: The Future of Golf

[newtogolf]

I wonder what distance from a 15" hole is a near gimme?  I'm thinking that it would be near impossible to 3 putt (unless the putting surface was mammoth) to a 15" hole or is that mistaken?

With a 15" hole, no one should ever leave a putt short, that's for sure.

[ay33660]

No one is saying change the game of golf, I think what Infamous was saying and what I agreed with is like baseball, softball was spawned from that. People that play baseball don't think the game is ruined because softball exists and because softball exists that might get people into baseball at a later time.

Only $50,000 for fees?!?! By the sounds of it you are happy with golf being a country club sport. One person made a suggestion if 15 inch cups, thats not going to be the new regulation for golf cups thats just going to be a starting point. when kids play baseball the starting point was tee ball and worked their way up to fastball. Soccer has indoor soccer and 6 on 6. No one thinks that the most popular game in the world is ruined because of the variations and with indoor the rules are quite different. Continuous subs, sub on the fly, a penalty box, boards and smaller nets to name a few differences.

So if people would like a 15 inch cup or a different type/variation of golf, why should you care? No one is saying this is how golf is going to be, but a variation of the game in a simpler form to maybe attract new people.

Why should I care about having a 15 inch hole. Well I care because it is a change to the playing field.Softball and baseball can be played on the same field. I would not ever want a 15 inch hole at my golf course. It would be like lowering the height of the basketball net to make it easier.

Also how does having a 15 inch cup make it any easier to get the ball onto the green. When i was starting to play golf putting was the first part of golf that I got good at.

As for if I am happy with golf being a country club sport. I really don't care except that for me I enjoy being a member of a country club. I often play at public and resort courses. One of my favourite courses is a Vancouver city owned course called Fraserview. If you don't like the country club aspect of golf then you do not have to join one to enjoy golf.

As others have said golf is hard to master ..... if one can actually master golf. And that is the reason I am hooked. I think a lot of type A personalities are hooked on golf because it is so hard to master.

Yesterday I played with my uncle who is in his late 60's so I joined him at the forward set of tees. It played to just over 6000 yards. It was a lot of fun being able to reach par 5s in two and having only a wedge in to par 4s. I think the current "play it forward" concept is one simple way to make golf easier and more fun.

Playing it forward still maintains the traditions of golf. It can be argued that playing a course at 6000 to 6200 yards is actually closer to the historical yardage instead of the over 7000 yards of many new courses.

The other aspect is to make it more acceptable to play 9 holes. This cuts the time to only 2 to 2.5 hours.

I think the closing of golf courses and Nicklaus' lack of work in the US today is solely related to the housing implosion of the last 8 years. I think the majority of the new courses designed by Nicklaus in the 10 years before the bubble burst were all for housing developments.

[Ernest Jones]

With a 15" hole, no one should ever leave a putt short, that's for sure.

Ha ha, never say never...

But seriously, what's the capture speed for a 15" cup??? Maybe @iacas can math that one up for us.

I don't see this as being a panacea for getting more people to enjoy golf. Putting is relatively easy, it's getting that GIR that's a bitch. You give me those GIR and I'll get to scratch pretty quick. Hell I'll coach my wife, whose never hit a golf ball in her life, to near scratch if you give her automatic GIR and I don't think I'm being hyperbolic in the least - 2 putting isn't hard and you'll always have the occasional 1 putts to offset the occasional 3 putts. Once you figure out how to get the speed right, two putting isn't that great of a challenge.

[BrownCoast]

Why should I care about having a 15 inch hole. Well I care because it is a change to the playing field.Softball and baseball can be played on the same field. I would not ever want a 15 inch hole at my golf course. It would be like lowering the height of the basketball net to make it easier.

Also how does having a 15 inch cup make it any easier to get the ball onto the green. When i was starting to play golf putting was the first part of golf that I got good at.

As for if I am happy with golf being a country club sport. I really don't care except that for me I enjoy being a member of a country club. I often play at public and resort courses. One of my favourite courses is a Vancouver city owned course called Fraserview. If you don't like the country club aspect of golf then you do not have to join one to enjoy golf.

As others have said golf is hard to master ..... if one can actually master golf. And that is the reason I am hooked. I think a lot of type A personalities are hooked on golf because it is so hard to master.

Yesterday I played with my uncle who is in his late 60's so I joined him at the forward set of tees. It played to just over 6000 yards. It was a lot of fun being able to reach par 5s in two and having only a wedge in to par 4s. I think the current "play it forward" concept is one simple way to make golf easier and more fun.

Playing it forward still maintains the traditions of golf. It can be argued that playing a course at 6000 to 6200 yards is actually closer to the historical yardage instead of the over 7000 yards of many new courses.

The other aspect is to make it more acceptable to play 9 holes. This cuts the time to only 2 to 2.5 hours.

I think the closing of golf courses and Nicklaus' lack of work in the US today is solely related to the housing implosion of the last 8 years. I think the majority of the new courses designed by Nicklaus in the 10 years before the bubble burst were all for housing developments.

I didn't say all golf courses should have a 15 inch cup or a 15 in cup at all. Personally I don't care for that idea but I do like the thought of various "easier" ways to play golf for new players or players that are in a decline of playing due to lack of interest. as far as baseball and soft ball, yes they are on the same field but rules are very different. there is also slow pitch and tee ball (for kids). Soccer is played on one type of field, indoor on another (obviously) and 6 on 6 outdoor on a smaller style soccer field. now as we get older players can't run for 90 mins but with 6 on 6 and indoor there is unlimited subs throughout the game.

Golf for a pro is tough let alone an amateur. What I think this "new version" is all about, is not to replace the traditional game of golf but a second version that is easier and less intimidating for newcomers or people that just want to have fun without a lot of the challenges. There is a driving range in Texas somewhere I believe. what they did was put a spin on it. it is licensed with stadium lighting and a special floor that registers where your ball went. They have computerized screens in your booths where you play games based on your golf shot. and it stays open late and is geared like a "club" atmosphere.

I'm with you, I like the challenge of golf but I also think the game could use a little help here and there. As far as variations could go.

[pabird]

This must be the same man (struggled to avoid adjective ) who suggested bigger soccer goals Leave the game alone but make pay to play cheaper in off peak times and with all the money swishing around in golf lay on more free group instructed practice sessions

[ay33660]

Golf for a pro is tough let alone an amateur. What I think this "new version" is all about, is not to replace the traditional game of golf but a second version that is easier and less intimidating for newcomers or people that just want to have fun without a lot of the challenges. There is a driving range in Texas somewhere I believe. what they did was put a spin on it. it is licensed with stadium lighting and a special floor that registers where your ball went. They have computerized screens in your booths where you play games based on your golf shot. and it stays open late and is geared like a "club" atmosphere.

I saw the Texas range idea in the video also and I am with you it is a great idea.

At our local bowling alley they do the same thing and it has certainly brought in new and younger bowlers.

[NJpatbee]

I would leave most of the game as it is - with today's equipment it is easire than it has ever been, especially playing from the middle tees.  I would correct the lame rule that the only hazards are water and sand (worst rule in golf), and allow for any area where the ball is most likely lost or unplayable to be marked as a hazard with red stakes.  OB stays stroke and distance.   Add green tees for novices and very short hitters.  Both of these changes will speed up play and perhaps get a few new golfers on the course without being intimidated or taking forever.

[newtogolf]

Ha ha, never say never...

But seriously, what's the capture speed for a 15" cup??? Maybe @iacas can math that one up for us.

I don't see this as being a panacea for getting more people to enjoy golf. Putting is relatively easy, it's getting that GIR that's a bitch. You give me those GIR and I'll get to scratch pretty quick. Hell I'll coach my wife, whose never hit a golf ball in her life, to near scratch if you give her automatic GIR and I don't think I'm being hyperbolic in the least - 2 putting isn't hard and you'll always have the occasional 1 putts to offset the occasional 3 putts. Once you figure out how to get the speed right, two putting isn't that great of a challenge.

I agree, but the general approach on 15" holes should be never leave them short as there's no chance the ball wouldn't fall in if you roll it over 10" of the 15" hole.

I don't see 15" holes as being the savior of golf either.  I know there's the psychology of seeing the ball go in the hole, but so many people who aren't playing by the rules are more than happy to take a gimme that I don't think it's as important as some would lead you to believe.  As a test case, they could spray paint a traditional hole with a 15" circle around it.  If you play by the 15" rules, any putt that lands in the circle is good.

[turtleback]

Good segment. Traditionalists need to loosen the grip. When I play a pick up game of basketball, I'm not playing 12 minute quarters with referees. When I play a friendly, I don't play 45 minute halves with extra time. When I play football, I don't play 60 minutes with instant replay, and SUDDEN DEATH (*George Carlin voice*). If I want to have a catch with my brother, I dont call 16 of my friends and play nine innings. My point is, golf needs an immediate "elastic clause " injection handed down by the USGA - or the game will continue to circle the drain.

Apples and oranges. With team sports you need stuff you do not have.  I cannot remember the last time I went to the park and there were basketball referees sitting around waiting to ref games.  There is no such factor in golf.  You go to the course andplay, and any rules deviations are strictly at your choice, not necessity.

A quick suggestion could be play in teams of 2 in this uninvented fun league 9 holes. Basically you have team 1 and team 2 now you are allowed to drop your ball 2 club lengths back from a member of the opposing team twice per player and they can do the same as long as it is outside the 100 yard stake and only once per hole. If all balls are in the fairway, no drops even if you duff your drive and it stays in the fairway. Only 1 stroke penalty on all shots. dropping by opposing teams ball is free, no stroke. you can also drop by your teammates ball twice in a round and total team score goes towards team win. Just spitballing here nothing set in stone but i think it would draw interest. Obviously it would need a few more rules but thats what I came up with off the top of my head.

Make it really interesting and require the players wear clown noses and big floppy shoes.

No one is saying change the game of golf, I think what Infamous was saying and what I agreed with is like baseball, softball was spawned from that. People that play baseball don't think the game is ruined because softball exists and because softball exists that might get people into baseball at a later time.

No one starts out with softball and moves to baseball.  It goes the other way.

Just as (virtually) no one will ever start with 15" holes and relaxed rules and progress to becoming regular long term golfers.   Because it is still hard, and people that embrace that don't need the gimmicks - and those that do not will never be golfers.

[Infamous 273]

Apples and oranges. With team sports you need stuff you do not have.  I cannot remember the last time I went to the park and there were basketball referees sitting around waiting to ref games.  There is no such factor in golf.  You go to the course andplay, and any rules deviations are strictly at your choice, not necessity.

I think you missed my point a bit. In order to play golf and any course, you need to play a minimum of 9 holes - when's the last time you went to a 6 hole course and paid $8? When is the last time you went to a grass range, with an adjacent 3 hole loop that was complimentary after hitting your $10 bucket of balls? Golf needs to exit the Stone Age, and start thinking outside of the box. Yeah, playing it forward for 9 holes is cool I guess, but young men and women with kids don't have 2+ hours to golf, much less 30-60 min in round trip travel time to and from the course.

[dsc123]

If you like 15" holes, why not just play with 4.25" cups and take gimmies inside 3'?

[turtleback]

I think you missed my point a bit. In order to play golf and any course, you need to

play a minimum of 9 holes - when's the last time you went to a 6 hole course and paid $8? When is the last time you went to a grass range, with an adjacent 3 hole loop that was complimentary after hitting your $10 bucket of balls? Golf needs to exit the Stone Age, and start thinking outside of the box. Yeah, playing it forward for 9 holes is cool I guess, but young men and women with kids don't have 2+ hours to golf, much less 30-60 min in round trip travel time to and from the course.

None of the things you mention changes the essential nature of the game the way 15" holes and relaxed "rules" do.  I'd love there to be more par 3 and pitch and putt courses.  THAT is the way we might draw in new players.  A very small portion (because golf will never be a game for the masses) will be drawn in to the real game.  But even on a pitch and putt course the essence of the game is far more authentic, IMO than in in a lot of the circus-like suggestions that have surfaced.

The point YOU missed is that comparisons with other ports generally make very little sense, as in your basketball attempted analogy.  Because in almost every case it is not a matter of the players being able to play by the real rules but choosing not to, but a matter that the circumstances make it impossible to do so.  You would have had a better case if people just went down the park to play basketball but decided the game was too hard so they would eliminate dribbling.  But of course they don't do that because they do not need to eliminate dribbling in order to be able to play.

[newtogolf]

If something is going to help generate interest in golf, it's TopGolf or something similar as it reduces golf to a video game that involves swinging a club.  I can see people wanting to go out on a weekend, have some drinks and play TopGolf, the focus isn't on golf, it's on having fun and is exactly what a lot of bowling alleys did when bowling took a downturn.

The rest of the ideas (15" holes, 6 hole rounds, non-conforming equipment, etc) amount to little more than lipstick on a pig.

[ay33660]

Yeah, playing it forward for 9 holes is cool I guess, but young men and women with kids don't have 2+ hours to golf, much less 30-60 min in round trip travel time to and from the course.

But that has always been the case with golf or anything else for those with young families.

I starting golfing in my late 20s when I had moved up the ranks in my job and it now required me to entertain clients at the golf course.

If it wasn't for that I probably wouldn't have started golfing.

I took a series of lessons and proceeded to golf around 10 or 15 rounds a year and mostly for work. I did not keep a handicap and my only goals was to not embarrass myself in front of my clients. This continued into my 30s.

I just didn't have time to golf regularly on the weekends till my kids were in their mid teens.

This was probably the case in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and still the case today.

Why is this a problem for the survival of golf now? Golf has always taken a long time to play golf and this has always restricted the ability of 20 and 30 year olds with young families to play on a regular basis. This was the case in the past and will continue to be an issue in the future. There is probably no solution for this.

Most people raise families in their late 20s, 30s and 40s. It means changes to what they can participate in and it limits the amount of free time they have.

I also wanted to introduce my kids to as many different sports as possible. So they played soccer, golf, hockey, volleyball, softball and lacrosse. They also learned to ski, snowboard, wakeboard and water ski. All of this takes a LOT of time.

At one time I coached my kid's soccer and hockey teams at the same time. It took at least 10 hours a week. That doesn't include taking him snowboarding or wakeboarding which takes at least 5 to 7 hours a day.

Once you reach the late 40s and 50s, the time required for child raising is gone and you have a lot more time to yourself.

It wasn't till my mid 40s that I began to really play golf a lot and for recreational purposes.

This pattern will not change by having 15" holes etc.

Off topic a bit but if you think golf is expensive try snow skiing or snow boarding, the daily lift tickets run at least $80 per person and it also takes a lot of time to participate in.

[Infamous 273]

None of the things you mention changes the essential nature of the game the way 15" holes and relaxed "rules" do.  I'd love there to be more par 3 and pitch and putt courses.  THAT is the way we might draw in new players.  A very small portion (because golf will never be a game for the masses) will be drawn in to the real game.  But even on a pitch and putt course the essence of the game is far more authentic, IMO than in in a lot of the circus-like suggestions that have surfaced. The point YOU missed is that comparisons with other ports generally make very little sense, as in your basketball attempted analogy. Because in almost every case it is not a matter of the players being able to play by the real rules but choosing not to, but a matter that the circumstances make it impossible to do so. You would have had a better case if people just went down the park to play basketball but decided the game was too hard so they would eliminate dribbling.  But of course they don't do that because they do not need to eliminate dribbling in order to be able to play.

I've played in softball leagues with umpires. I've played in flag football leagues with referees. I've played in rec basketball leagues with officials, and I've also played in indoor soccer leagues with referees. So, I'm not sure what you mean by "circumstances make it impossible to do so"? Obviously, if I play a game of horse with my nephew, I'm not gonna hire someone to make sure my foot was behind the line, or I called net before I drained the fadeaway. However, if I'm a competitive guy who likes playing and competing with like minded people, there are ways of playing the Readers Digest version of a sport, while maintaining the sports integrity and competitive nature.

[turtleback]

I've played in softball leagues with umpires. I've played in flag football leagues with referees. I've played in rec basketball leagues with officials, and I've also played in indoor soccer leagues with referees. So, I'm not sure what you mean by "circumstances make it impossible to do so"? Obviously, if I play a game of horse with my nephew, I'm not gonna hire someone to make sure my foot was behind the line, or I called net before I drained the fadeaway. However, if I'm a competitive guy who likes playing and competing with like minded people, there are ways of playing the Readers Digest version of a sport, while maintaining the sports integrity and competitive nature.

Well, this is a different story because you are now talking about people who have already been introduced to the sport and are playing it on some competitive level.  Golfers who play at some competitive level generally maintain handicaps.  Which I do not think has an analogy in your examples.  And as soon as you introduce handicaps you need a uniformity in the rules.

softball

flag football

rec basketball

Notice that even in these examples qualifiers are used to distinguish the game from the REAL game.  Analogies between golf and team sports just do not work.

[Infamous 273]

Well, this is a different story because you are now talking about people who have already been introduced to the sport and are playing it on some competitive level.  Golfers who play at some competitive level generally maintain handicaps.  Which I do not think has an analogy in your examples.  And as soon as you introduce handicaps you need a uniformity in the rules. softball flag football rec basketball Notice that even in these examples qualifiers are used to distinguish the game from the REAL game.  Analogies between golf and team sports just do not work.

Golf league.

[BrownCoast]

I don't think any of us in here want to change the game of golf. I just think people are suggesting variations on the game. leave golf as it is but bring in other forms to possibly attract new players. That might create interest in playing the actual game of golf. None of the variations would involve handicaps (for obvious reasons) and like darts or pool, can create different games in a team setting (possibly). Darts is an individual sport but they now have team darts in bars and they play different types of games where its not just a countdown from 501.