Jump to content
IGNORED

A Rules Question about Missing Tee Markers


Mark141
Note: This thread is 3492 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

  • Administrator

It can be equalized by being 90 yards long the next day, but do courses really keep track of such settings?  I doubt it very much.

No, because they don't have to: if they stick to the proper tee boxes, they'll equalize themselves. Plus the odds of a course being five yards short on EVERY hole is basically nil. Again, so long as they stick to the proper tee boxes. Keeping records would be busywork.

It can be equalized by being 90 yards long the next day, but do courses really keep track of such settings?  I doubt it very much.  It's very frustrating when the white tees (example only) are consistently set up short, often in a foolhardy attempt to improve pace of play (people are responsible for slow play, course set up won't improve it to any great extent).

It's OT, but I disagree that yardage can't help slow play. It too has to be more extreme than five yards to make a difference, though, so maybe that's what you're saying: a few yards won't matter.

Those who play this shortened course consistently then end up with lower indexes than their capability and complain when players from other courses consistently whup them in net events.  For handicap indexes to truly reflect the player's capability, the courses must be set up to average the rated length over a relatively short period of time (maybe every week).

Shoot 84 and your index is off by about 0.3 if you play a course with about a 139 slope that's 90 yards short of its rated yardage. It's still not a very big difference. :-)

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

No, because they don't have to: if they stick to the proper tee boxes, they'll equalize themselves. Plus the odds of a course being five yards short on EVERY hole is basically nil. Again, so long as they stick to the proper tee boxes. Keeping records would be busywork.

It's OT, but I disagree that yardage can't help slow play. It too has to be more extreme than five yards to make a difference, though, so maybe that's what you're saying: a few yards won't matter.

Shoot 84 and your index is off by about 0.3 if you play a course with about a 139 slope that's 90 yards short of its rated yardage. It's still not a very big difference.


I've stated my opinions, and am happy to continue with them.  If you consider that a difference of 0.3 in course rating isn't significant, why doesn't the USGA just give ratings to the nearest 0.5, ie, never have a course rating other than 69.5, 70.0, 70.5 etc?  Maybe they do the number to the nearest tenth of a stroke because they consider a tenth to be significant?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
I've stated my opinions, and am happy to continue with them.

As have I, and as am I.

If you consider that a difference of 0.3 in course rating isn't significant, why doesn't the USGA just give ratings to the nearest 0.5, ie, never have a course rating other than 69.5, 70.0, 70.5 etc?  Maybe they do the number to the nearest tenth of a stroke because they consider a tenth to be significant?

Those aren't equivalent situations.

They go to the nearest tenth because that's what the place holder is for. But their definition of what's significant and what I call significant are different.

If you're owed $12.22 in change and you get $12.25 back because it's easier on the waitress to give you a quarter, do you consider that change to be significant? Unlikely. But to say that we should just round everything to dimes because of that is not the same.

And… Here's the beauty of this all: you get to keep your opinion, and I get to keep mine! And it's all good, and golf still exists and is enjoyed by millions!

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

As have I, and as am I.

Those aren't equivalent situations.

They go to the nearest tenth because that's what the place holder is for. But their definition of what's significant and what I call significant are different.

If you're owed $12.22 in change and you get $12.25 back because it's easier on the waitress to give you a quarter, do you consider that change to be significant? Unlikely. But to say that we should just round everything to dimes because of that is not the same.

And… Here's the beauty of this all: you get to keep your opinion, and I get to keep mine! And it's all good, and golf still exists and is enjoyed by millions!


This isn't nickel and dime stuff!  I was always taught that two things not the same are different - and that's the case here - handicaps and course ratings are not the same as nickels and dimes.  There's a lot more significance to handicaps than a three cent difference in change.  I'm old enough to remember when getting change from a nickel was significant - nobody would ever round $0.03 up to $0.05 when I was growing up.  I will stay with the USGA perspective, tenths of stroke ratings are important.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
[QUOTE name="rogolf" url="/t/76757/a-nit-picking-rules-question/18#post_1046100"]   This isn't nickel and dime stuff!  I was always taught that two things not the same are different [/QUOTE] I didn't say they were the same or "not different." I said the change was small. Let's stick to the topic, eh?
  • Upvote 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

tenths of stroke ratings are important.

But they are spurious accuracy.

Put 5 rating teams on a course and you'll get at least two ratings which vary by more than 0.1

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator

But they are spurious accuracy.

Put 5 rating teams on a course and you'll get at least two ratings which vary by more than 0.1

Still not the topic here.

There is probably enough interest (though perhaps only amongst a few people) to have a separate ratings discussion thread.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Still not the topic here.

There is probably enough interest (though perhaps only amongst a few people) to have a separate ratings discussion thread.

Yes please!

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Yes please!

I agree, as now that I am retired it is something I might look into as a volunteer activity.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

@rogolf & @iacas & @Rulesman

Thanks to each of you for making very valid statements in regards to the effects which determine a course rating by course setup.

However, a point which I was attempting to describe is "creating a level playing field" in events which have players at different tee boxes.

My beef is on several occasions, a player at the back (Black Tees) and forward (White Tees) the markers would be several yards in front of the stones (near front sections of tee boxes)

and the middle (Blue Tees) would be located at the back of the box, several yards behind the stone marker.

On just a single hole, it's not a big deal. But when this occurred with four or more holes, then one needs to address the situation.

This seems to occur fairly often at our course, enough to inquire if would give an advantage or a disadvantages to players?

I have always felt in any event, everyone should play at the same tees boxes and allow seniors to play forward tees.

Sorry to get OT and thanks for the many viewpoints about tee placement.

Club Rat

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

@rogolf & @iacas & @Rulesman

Thanks to each of you for making very valid statements in regards to the effects which determine a course rating by course setup.

However, a point which I was attempting to describe is "creating a level playing field" in events which have players at different tee boxes.

My beef is on several occasions, a player at the back (Black Tees) and forward (White Tees) the markers would be several yards in front of the stones (near front sections of tee boxes)

and the middle (Blue Tees) would be located at the back of the box, several yards behind the stone marker.

On just a single hole, it's not a big deal. But when this occurred with four or more holes, then one needs to address the situation.

This seems to occur fairly often at our course, enough to inquire if would give an advantage or a disadvantages to players?

I have always felt in any event, everyone should play at the same tees boxes and allow seniors to play forward tees.

Sorry to get OT and thanks for the many viewpoints about tee placement.

Club Rat


I agree that could be an issue.  In such a competition, it would be very worthwhile to ensure that all of the tee markers are placed at their respective stone markers or within a couple paces thereof.  Imo, tournament set ups should not be left to the greens crew unless they have been provided specific instructions by the Committee.  Anything that goes wrong is the fault of the organizing Committee, not the greens crew.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator

I agree that could be an issue.  In such a competition, it would be very worthwhile to ensure that all of the tee markers are placed at their respective stone markers or within a couple paces thereof.  Imo, tournament set ups should not be left to the greens crew unless they have been provided specific instructions by the Committee.  Anything that goes wrong is the fault of the organizing Committee, not the greens crew.

Yep. The head pro should be in charge of both hole locations and tee marker locations.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

The Pro's usually dot the greens for pin placements and hands out pin sheets on each day of our club events.

But very rarely do they indicate tee placements or course setup.

Tee's are generally rotated or moved every other day, sometimes only from side to side.

I play almost everyday and the tees may move a foot or two. The assistant green keeper sets the tee locations when they are moved.

When the club hosts District or USGA events, they set pins and tees.

Rarely will they ask for rough length or green speed to any specs.

Our course is a Nicklaus Championship course which plays to tournament conditions pretty much everyday, which is a real treat.

We have the best back pin positions in comparison to other courses in the area.

I feel tee locations are never considered as an intricate part of the days event.

When in fact, they could change the difficultly of every hole with wind conditions or when the course is played after heavy rains.

Club Rat

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

The Pro's usually dot the greens for pin placements and hands out pin sheets on each day of our club events.

But very rarely do they indicate tee placements or course setup.

Tee's are generally rotated or moved every other day, sometimes only from side to side.

I play almost everyday and the tees may move a foot or two. The assistant green keeper sets the tee locations when they are moved.

When the club hosts District or USGA events, they set pins and tees.

Rarely will they ask for rough length or green speed to any specs.

Our course is a Nicklaus Championship course which plays to tournament conditions pretty much everyday, which is a real treat.

We have the best back pin positions in comparison to other courses in the area.

I feel tee locations are never considered as an intricate part of the days event.

When in fact, they could change the difficultly of every hole with wind conditions or when the course is played after heavy rains.

Club Rat

When I'm doing set up, which includes both hole location and tee location, I'm very aware of where the tees are set with respect to hole location.  It may not make much difference on a very long par five, but it certainly does on shorter par fours and always on par threes.  If I set up a potentially drivable par 4, I will always make it a very tough hole location - typically short and just over a bunker or near a drop off (if you really want to drive low handicappers nuts, put out 18 short hole locations).  On other holes, I'll always try to find a way to hide the bottom of the flag stick.  It's fun trying to tease the players.  However, in the final analysis, the hole locations need to be balanced between left and right (to me, a center hole location is "neutral"), but there is no need to balance front, center and back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Note: This thread is 3492 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Popular Now

  • Posts

    • Day 76 - Pretty sore today, so I opted for putting over my Stack session. Primary focus was on starting line, as my putting has been pretty poor this year. 
    • Been a bit of delay in updates but I needed to come back east as my mom's health has taken a serious turn for the worse. In a 3 day span we learned she had a tumor to she has stage 4 cancer and stopped eating and drinking for the most part. She has had a rough 3 months but certainly didn't think we'd be at the point of setting up hospice for her. My mom was never into any sports really other than following the Red Sox because my dad was a big fan. She always cared about what we were involved in including asking about how golf went.  I have kept up with my 5 minutes of daily practice and will go to the gym here in NH tomorrow morning. Despite the somber nature of this trip my family has commented more than a few times about my weight loss so it's important to me to keep it up. I know my mom always wanted us happy in whatever we did so I'll continue with my fitness journey keeping that in mind. 
    • Day 109- Putting drills on a putting green for 20 minutes. 
    • Day 252: did a stack session. Did some slow rehearsal swings during breaks. 
    • Day 82: 3/18/24 Tried a Stack session but could not certify my warmup. Finished with indoor chips and putting. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...