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Hazard or Out Of Bounds?


baw1
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Thanks for the feedback. Ok, so stroke+distance was the proper penalty here (or provisional ball) since it was not certain if the ball landed in the hazard. The assumption here is that there is a finite hazard area with something else beyond it (OB or otherwise).

Part of my confusion though is understanding if the hazard area ever really ends? Meaning that basically anything landing beyond the red sticks (before or after the neighbors fence) could be considered "in the hazard"? So put a little differently the question is whether the hazard area might extend indefinitely (so eligible for hazard rule/drop)?

A water hazard by Definition is on the course.  It stops when it reaches a boundary of the course.  If there is a possibility that your ball has gone beyond the boundary, it must be treated as having gone out of bounds.  As said above, there has to be virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard to proceed under the water hazard rule.

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If there are no markings on the opposite margin of a water hazard, how can it extend to infinity when in the absence of markings the natural margins of the hazard define it?

The Pacific Ocean is a LWH on the 7th at Pebble Beach and has no far margin. Unless someone has placed some red stakes on Hawaii ;-)

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The Pacific Ocean is a LWH on the 7th at Pebble Beach and has no far margin. Unless someone has placed some red stakes on Hawaii

I just knew someone was going to say something like that. :-D In the  situation described, which is what I was referring to (which I suspect you well knew!)  the hazard did have  a natural margin within sight .  But to be my usual pedantic self, even the Pacific Ocean has a natural margin.  Perhaps a tad too far away to be particularly relevant, but certainly within a finite distance. :whistle:

There are probably many links courses which mark the  beach and ocean as a LWH, my favourite  being Machrihanish  where your drive off the 1st crosses the curve of the bay.  There the natural margin will be on the other side of the Atlantic.

For our friends across the said Atlantic, Machrihanish is a classic Scottish links course on the Kintyre peninsula on the west side of Scotland.  Some fine photos on the website http://www.machgolf.com

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even the Pacific Ocean has a natural margin.  Perhaps a tad too far away to be particularly relevant, but certainly within a finite distance.

I thought you could circumnavigate the globe without crossing land.

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Ok.   I put my ball into the sea on Machrihanish which is on the west side of the peninsula and opt to play from the opposite margin. I set sail and for the sake of argument let's say there is no landfall till I return to the east side of the peninsula. The first bit of  ground you come to if you cross a lateral water hazard has to be the opposite margin and so I have arrived at the opposite margin and just have work out an equidistant point and drop within 2 club lengths.   Simples. :-D

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Although not specifically stated, I think it's safe to infer that in order to be able to take relief on the opposite margin of a LWH, that opposite margin has to be ON THE FREAKING GOLF COURSE! ;-)

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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I thought you could circumnavigate the globe without crossing land.


Even if that were true (it isn't, unless you're talking about a small loop around Antarctica or something), your ball would have had to cross the margin of land/sea at some point, so you wouldn't be circumnavigating the globe without crossing land by definition. You'd have to pass through that point eventually.

Fun. :)

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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It can be done from the southern most tip of Chile and the north or southern most tips of South Sandwich/South Georgia Islands.


Yes, which is basically just making a small circle around Antarctica, like I said… Not really the topic here, especially since, again, if your ball crossed the land/sea margin you'd hit land before you came back to it… and not even that is relevant to golf unless you're playing within about a 5-iron of either pole.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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Although not specifically stated, I think it's safe to infer that in order to be able to take relief on the opposite margin of a LWH, that opposite margin has to be ON THE FREAKING GOLF COURSE!

It could be, of course, that the  golf course is on a peninsula so narrow that the course extends to both east and west sides, in which you are indeed on the freaking golf course after your circumnavigation.  Indeed you could save a lot of time by just walking from one side to the other and dropping a ball.

:dance:

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

The Pacific Ocean is a LWH on the 7th at Pebble Beach and has no far margin. Unless someone has placed some red stakes on Hawaii

I just knew someone was going to say something like that.    In the  situation described, which is what I was referring to (which I suspect you well knew!)  the hazard did have  a natural margin within sight .  But to be my usual pedantic self, even the Pacific Ocean has a natural margin.  Perhaps a tad too far away to be particularly relevant, but certainly within a finite distance.

There are probably many links courses which mark the  beach and ocean as a LWH, my favourite  being Machrihanish  where your drive off the 1st crosses the curve of the bay.  There the natural margin will be on the other side of the Atlantic.

For our friends across the said Atlantic, Machrihanish is a classic Scottish links course on the Kintyre peninsula on the west side of Scotland.  Some fine photos on the website http://www.machgolf.com

My home course in Colorado has a hazard which is only marked as a hazard along three sides.  The north side has a boundary fence about 10 yards from the "natural border" of the hazard, but the area in between is included in the hazard for reasons of practicality.

One thing you need to realize is that over the years and the sheer numbers of courses and terrain features, almost everything that could be experienced has been experienced.  There is nothing wrong with including a reasonable amount of difficult terrain within the margin of a hazard, even if that terrain is not technically part of the natural slope or course of the hazard.  The point being that the area so marked should meet the definition of a water hazard and any unmaintained rough which is included within the margin is not excessive.  Including a 60 yard strip of forest between the maintained rough and the natural boundary could be considered as excessive.  Calling a patch of woodland a "hazard" just to speed play is simply wrong.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Of course there are still courses that hav no OOB limits, never mind farside LWH margins

OK, I'll bite.  How can a course have no OOB limits?  Inquiring minds, you know.  The inability of a course to have infinite size would seem to argue against it, but I'm sure you have something (tricky) in mind.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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OK, I'll bite.  How can a course have no OOB limits?  Inquiring minds, you know.  The inability of a course to have infinite size would seem to argue against it, but I'm sure you have something (tricky) in mind.

I imagine what he means, is that the course has no marked boundaries.  Think about courses in the middle of the woods or desert with absolutely nothing around them.  The course isn't actually infinite in size, but from a practical nature, there is no "out-of-bounds".....

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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I imagine what he means, is that the course has no marked boundaries.  Think about courses in the middle of the woods or desert with absolutely nothing around them.  The course isn't actually infinite in size, but from a practical nature, there is no "out-of-bounds".....

Exactly

OK.I'll buy that.  There is still OB and there are still OB limits, but there is just no marking.

Am I wrong, though, in my understanding that anything that is not on the property of the course is OB whether or not so marked?  That was kind of the genesis of my point since obviously a golf course has to have limits to its property.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Am I wrong, though, in my understanding that anything that is not on the property of the course is OB whether or not so marked?  That was kind of the genesis of my point since obviously a golf course has to have limits to its property.

I would guess that, yes, you are wrong.

Because if we're getting technical, anybody who owns property on the ocean (at least in California) owns only to the "mean high tide line."  So, pretty much any balls sliced into the water on the holes at Pebble that are on the cliffs would be off the course property.

Also, if the OB is not marked - say a course in the middle of nowhere with nothing surrounding it - and you are not hauling around survey equipment while you play, how would you determine if you were off the course property?

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I would guess that, yes, you are wrong. Because if we're getting technical, anybody who owns property on the ocean (at least in California) owns only to the "mean high tide line."  So, pretty much any balls sliced into the water on the holes at Pebble that are on the cliffs would be off the course property. Also, if the OB is not marked - say a course in the middle of nowhere with nothing surrounding it - and you are not hauling around survey equipment while you play, how would you determine if you were off the course property?

Precisely.

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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Note: This thread is 3361 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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