Equitable Stroke Control (ESC) Discussion

[Prosup]

First off, congrats on making scratch. I know that has to be tough to do and maintain

I always understood the purpose of the handicap system was to put people on en even playing field, your having to give strokes is really a further compliment of your talent.

My biggest complaint of the handicap system is the ESC. Which for you means you can't post anything over a six, means I can't post anything over a seven. Which is baloney. I count every stroke and post it and yes maybe five or six times a year I have an eight or so. The USGA say you aren't suppose to post those. They are wrong, bad holes are just as much a part of golf as good holes.

[HarlDane]

First off, congrats on making scratch. I know that has to be tough to do and maintain

If you post them, your inflating your handicap. The strokes still count, just not against your handicap and there are very valid reasons for this.

[lamebums]

Same reason as the thing I said before. Imagine you play 20% better than your handicap. For a 3, that's 0.6 or barely half a stroke. For a 25 handicap, that's five strokes better. So it kind of makes sense that that's true, yeah.

What about this as a solution, then - in net events, everyone plays to 80 percent of their handicap? Or 75 percent if 80 doesn't get the job done? That way, a 36 is only given 29 strokes, and if he does indeed have a few good holes, he won't shoot well below par, giving lower handicaps a better chance at it.

Those 15-handicaps are always capable of scoring to the next level.

As a 15-ish I can agree to this. I have the game to shoot par or better, just not the consistency to hold it together for 18 holes let alone all year.

[Prosup]

Sorry, I can't think of a single valid reason for ESC scoring. It's phoney handicapping not true.

[WhiteSoxFan]

Sorry, I can't think of a single valid reason for ESC scoring. It's phoney handicapping not true.

Your handicap is a representation of your potential, not the average of your scores. Like HarlDane said, without ESC you are inflating your handicap when you have a blowup hole. From

popeofslope.com

Equitable Stroke Control is the USGA's system for limiting your maximum score on any one hole so that your handicap reflects your true proficiency. It is the first line of defense against sandbagging because it prevents a golfer from deliberately recording a high score on one hole.

[iacas]

What about this as a solution, then - in net events, everyone plays to 80 percent of their handicap? Or 75 percent if 80 doesn't get the job done? That way, a 36 is only given 29 strokes, and if he does indeed have a few good holes, he won't shoot well below par, giving lower handicaps a better chance at it.

A lot of the times that's what they do. Usually it's only 90% though, which still isn't often quite enough.

Your handicap is a representation of your potential, not the average of your scores. Like HarlDane said, without ESC you are inflating your handicap when you have a blowup hole. From

Yeah. That about says it.

[Prosup]

A representation of your potential is it? Then lets follow that incorrect logic to the other side; If I were to get an eagle, which does not happen to 11 and above handicappers, I should only be able to post a birdie, that's my true potential. Even more ridiculously should a twenty or above get a hole in one, they should only be able to post or birdie or even a par,"a representation of their potential".

I think the ESC was developed by low handicappers with inflated egos who couldn't bear the idea that they too get an occasional eight or nine or more. Just like us all. So called blow-up holes are just as much a part of the game as great holes.

[iacas]

If I were to get an eagle, which does not happen to 11 and above handicappers, I should only be able to post a birdie, that's my true potential.

Uhm, no. If you got an eagle, then obviously you have the potential to get an eagle. Potential only works in one direction: towards the "better" side of scoring.

So called blow-up holes are just as much a part of the game as great holes.

ESC is, what, 15 years old? I suggest you look up the reasons why it came into being. I remember a lot of documentation being put out when it was introduced.

[Prosup]

Uhm no, potential goes in both directions. Ask any Pro as he ages, his potential goes to higher scores.

I'm well aware of the history of ESC and the documentation and arguments. It was and is false logic, just as it's expressed here. ESC does a disservice to each golfer, by not recognizing the complexity of the game. It's no more than sanctioned cheating; if you tee off and hit a ball into the water, you take a penalty stroke and are now hitting three , it goes in the green side bunker, you take two to get out (remember Jack took five to get out of Hell's bunker)and three putt for eight. A low handicapper only has to post a seven, eliminating the penalty stroke for the water shot. That's cheating the rules of golf.
Remeber the R&A; does not support ESC handicapping. It was the USGA falling to false logic and bloated ego's. Just because they say so does not make it right and in fact it is wrong.

[iacas]

Uhm no, potential goes in both directions.

As far as handicap goes, no, it does not. And while "potential" is often misused to cover "bad" things (i.e. "this has the 'potential' to get ugly), that's not the connotative definition of potential. Potential is towards the "succeed" end of the spectrum, not the "fail to perform" end.

The USGA clearly defines potential as "the ability to do good" with their 0.96 multiplier.

ESC does a disservice to each golfer, by not recognizing the complexity of the game.

Oh phooey. It has nothing to do with the "complexity of the game," and I'm willing to bet Dean Knuth spent a little more time analyzing everything than you have.

A low handicapper only has to post a seven, eliminating the penalty stroke for the water shot. That's cheating the rules of golf.

No, it's not, because ESC is a

handicapping rule . The golf is still played under the rules of golf. If you were playing a match or a tournament, match or stroke play, the 8 counts. For handicap purposes , the 7 (or 6 - I assume your guy was on a par five?) is used.

Remeber the R&A; does not support ESC handicapping.

The R&A;'s handicapping system is quite different from ours in many ways. It's not like it's entirely the same

with the exception of ESC.

[$2 Nassau]

How can you argue ESC? The USGA lays out clearly on their website. It should be used, period. What other rules do you not follow?

I hope you don't play in any tournaments with that sandbagging mentality.

It was the USGA falling to false logic and bloated ego's. Just because they say so does not make it right and in fact it is wrong.

[NM Golf]

Remeber the R&A; does not support ESC handicapping. It was the USGA falling to false logic and bloated ego's. Just because they say so does not make it right and in fact it is wrong.

This has to be the most ridiculous argument I have ever seen on here. The only person I could possibly see having a problem with ESC is a sandbagging cheater. The whole reason ESC was set up was to help do away with inflated handicaps.

You don't believe in ESC so you don't use it? Well that means you're a friggin cheater. I am glad you are not at my club because we don't need people like you.

[WhiteSoxFan]

iacas, 2$, and NM, thanks for fighting the good fight. I didn't have the patience to keep arguing with prosup. All excellent points.

[powerfade]

A representation of your potential is it? Then lets follow that incorrect logic to the other side; If I were to get an eagle, which does not happen to 11 and above handicappers, I should only be able to post a birdie, that's my true potential. Even more ridiculously should a twenty or above get a hole in one, they should only be able to post or birdie or even a par,"a representation of their potential".

Whether or not you agree with the system, the fact remain is that it is a rule and to outright disregard it is sad (actually...it's bs). I hope you keep your inflated index to yourself and don't use it to enter any tournaments.

Go back as far as you can and figure out what your index would be if you had used ESC.

[Sowbug2000]

Does this post have to continue?


Its a rule....a rule is a rule is a rule....

Cheating, or "bending" the rules is not a new concept in golf.

, I've been known to "improve" my lie. Guys in my league agree to moderate lie improvements......we don't play in tournaments, except our weekly Sunday wager!

So, abide by the (ESC) rule or not......doesn't really matter.

And about Plus Handicaps.......think of your bragging rights at "the Club!"

P.S. This post is not intended to offend!!! But written in jest with a little sarcasm!

[powerfade]

I guess we're a little more sensitive when it comes to tournaments.

I played in a 2-man tournament over the weekend. We were the first in and had our score up on the board. As scores were being posted, we were looking good.

With only a few scores left to post, one of the members pointed to a player who had just finished. He said the player was someone to worry about . He's an "18". He said the guy recently won a tourney with 6 birdies. Hmmmm.....kinda makes you think.

I was nervous until they posted that player's team's score - whew! He must've had an off day.


BTW - NM...Congrats on making it to scratch!!

[Prosup]

Actually, it isn't that good of fight, more misinformed.

The reason the ESC was set up was not to fight inflated handicaps, it can actually be traced to Augusta where the elite membership would only take a maximum double bogey on any hole, more to speed up play than anything.

Dean Knuth took that concept applied false logic and created the ESC. I had the good fortune to tee it up this year on the Old Course with three members of the R&A; and all three well remember the strong arm and arrogant presentation made by the USGA to get the R&A; to support the ESC. It did not work.

The question was asked ,"How could I possibly argue ESC? The USGA says it so it is. I think I have heard that same arguement in court. Just cus they say so doesn't make it right and it certainly is not fair.

Then the question was asked,"What other rules of golf do you not follow?"
Handicaps are not a rule of golf, in fact appendix III specifically states" The rules of golf do not legislate for the allocation and adjustment of handicaps." Individual unions throughout the world decide, so sorry the ESC is not universally accepted or used.

So to answer the question, I follow every rule of golf.

Lastly, the definition of potential is;that can, but has not yet come into being; possible, latent, unrealized or undeveloped. Nothing to do with succeed or not succeed, could be either way.

Truly, post any score that makes you feel good. I haven't read anything here that disproves that the ESC is a disservice to golf.

[bluenar9]

I don't know what this ESC thing is, but I've been calculating my handicap by posting all of my scores to a website (greenskeeper.org)...

I'm about to go read the popeofslope website, but I am presuming from this thread that with ESC I wouldn't count anything over a 7?