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The Definitive Pace of Play Thread


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83 members have voted

  1. 1. How long does it typically take you to play 18 holes as a foursome?

    • Under 3:00
      0
    • 3:00 to 3:30
      20
    • 3:30 to 4:00
      73
    • 4:00 to 4:30
      72
    • 4:30 to 5:00
      11
    • Over 5:00
      4


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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I have never seen that.  The courses I play, have a tee sheet, whether printed or on the computer, and the starter works from the sheet.  If there is an open time and a group is present and ready to play may be invited to go off on that earlier scheduled time, but only in the case of an open tee time on the sheet.  If they don't choose to do so there is no requirement for it.  At Foothills, my old home course,  the tee sheet is the law, and unless there is an open time to move into you go when you are scheduled, not before and certainly not later.

Playing with my brother a couple of weeks ago on a Saturday morning the fairway was open when we got to the tee 10 minutes early, we met up with the twosome we were joining, and the starter asked us to wait until our scheduled time, specifically to avoid jamming up on the course.  This was on a city owned municipal course, somewhat upscale but still a muni (for those who know the Denver area, this was at Fox Hollow in Lakewood, Canyon/Meadow nines).  We played in 4:05 on a somewhat difficult course, teeing off at 8:49 on Saturday morning, and we actually did a fair amount of waiting too, despite starting with a full hole open in front of us.

I suppose different places are different policies.  But on most muni courses, in fact most course period,  around here they pack the course during the prime season as they have to make their money in about 4 maybe 5 months before all the mid Westerners and Canadians go home for the Summer.  The only reason they might not call you to the tee early is if one of the players has not arrived yet or they have four unscheduled players around to fill the gap.  But for sure they don't leave the tee empty during prime time/season if they can avoid it, including your foursome getting called to the tee early.

But if they pack you in ahead time, what makes them think that there will be a group to put on for the time you originally had?  They would have  problem with me, because I usually make my reservations because that's when I want to play.  I'll check in at least a half hour early to let them know that I'm there, but then I go and putt, or grab a bite to eat or whatever until my tee time comes up.  I don't expect nor am I necessarily willing to go earlier - particularly not just so he can pack the course beyond its capacity to handle the load.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Alright I understand what you're saying but let's approach this a different way.  Basically you are saying that the course can assume (on average) two foursomes a hole and schedule tee times accordingly.  So if you accept that 4 hours is  reasonable time for a foursome to play a round the the time between foursome should be 6.6 minutes. But now you have a full course (rush hour) and the first foursome that has an accident, like a lost ball or an unexpected OB or needs to play out of the wrong fairway, etc.  will slow the entire cadre of golfers behind them down.  So while it does take a golfer cause the slowdown, the course is not set up to allow for  this and it will happen with 144 golfers on the course most of whom (according to the golf foundation) can't break 100 on the card.

The course indeed sets themselves up by having tight tee times. Note that I didn't say that I agree with them doing that as their expectation are a bit too lofty (and don't forget that loft means Lack Of F**ing Talent!) as to the ability of all the players, but with decent golfers knowing how to play and how to move along, it really shouldn't be an issue, even at 7 minutes. When one group slows down a bit on one hole, they could make up that time on the next few, but of course, bad (as in slow) players don't. They are oblivious to where they are in relation to the group ahead, and what they are doing, wasting copious amounts of time on things that are not golf.

My main point until now, across several posts, was simply that 7 minutes tee times does not equate to a 2 hours round anticipated by the course setting that tee time interval. My other point (somewhat reiterated just above) is that golfers can and should do better than what they are doing. It is not that hard to pay attention, be ready, hit and look at where the ball goes.  Then go find it. Then hit again.

Philippe

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It isn't the "waiting" part that bothers me.  Anyone who has played golf for any length of time can recognize bad habits out in front of them.  When you see every golf cart converge to one ball and sit there while player A checks his yardage, gets out a club, changes clubs, takes 8 practice swings, changes clubs again, then tries to execute the shot...while his entire group just sits there...and then they all move to the next ball where the entire routines starts over...well it is just annoying.

At least if you are not in the way of the first player's shot...walk over to your ball and start making your yardage assessment while he is doing his thing.

Then you see a similar routine on the greens.  No one is every ready to putt when it is their turn.  I see this over and over and over and guys wonder why pace of play is bad.

I am ok with 4.5 to 5 hour pace of play if the course is crowded...but geez...at least think about what you are doing or not doing to help pick up the pace.

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The course indeed sets themselves up by having tight tee times. Note that I didn't say that I agree with them doing that as their expectation are a bit too lofty (and don't forget that loft means Lack Of F**ing Talent!) as to the ability of all the players, but with decent golfers knowing how to play and how to move along, it really shouldn't be an issue, even at 7 minutes. When one group slows down a bit on one hole, they could make up that time on the next few, but of course, bad (as in slow) players don't. They are oblivious to where they are in relation to the group ahead, and what they are doing, wasting copious amounts of time on things that are not golf.

My main point until now, across several posts, was simply that 7 minutes tee times does not equate to a 2 hours round anticipated by the course setting that tee time interval. My other point (somewhat reiterated just above) is that golfers can and should do better than what they are doing. It is not that hard to pay attention, be ready, hit and look at where the ball goes.  Then go find it. Then hit again.

I understand your point and accept my math was improperly applied.  But my point, which I still believe valid, is your are more likely to get more sub 4 hour rounds with 10 to 12 minute spacing of tee times than with 7 minute spacing.  Probably counter intuitive for some but true in my estimation.  So the question is, is it better to pack the course and suffer 4.5 hour rounds on average, or would it be better to have 10 minute spacing and 3.75 hour round average?  I don't know the answer but suspect for profitability that the former is better or the course management would do it different.  But crowded courses are not better for the golfers as for sure your going to have long round.

But if they pack you in ahead time, what makes them think that there will be a group to put on for the time you originally had?  They would have  problem with me, because I usually make my reservations because that's when I want to play.  I'll check in at least a half hour early to let them know that I'm there, but then I go and putt, or grab a bite to eat or whatever until my tee time comes up.  I don't expect nor am I necessarily willing to go earlier - particularly not just so he can pack the course beyond its capacity to handle the load.

Well it is a problem Fourputt for me too.  I have  routine I like to do before a round to warm up and get my head right and if interrupted don't usually play as well.  I suspect if you get called earlier and don't want to go you can go to the pro shop and complain.  There usually (peak season anyway) are lots of singles looking to play and the starter would likely form up a foursome and send them out.  Of course at that time however you have already interrupted your routine so what would be the point.  This has only happened to me a couple of times at two different municipal courses because usually you are called late not early.

But my real point is that by having foursome teeing off as soon as the foursome in front of them hits their second shots is a guarantee of having golfers breathing down each others neck all day.  While this may be good for course profitability it isn't conducive to having 4 hour rounds or even playing your best when you feel hurried.

In the Phoenix area from Thanksgiving to about early May we have a lot of out of town visitors, golfing populations probably doubles or more municipal courses are prime targets for winter visitors as they are affordable even in Winter.  While this make prices higher and courses crowded, I appreciate the visitors as that is why we have so many courses in the area. In summer in Phoenix it is a good day if the course has makes enough to pay the water bill as not many, certainly not me, want to play in 110+ degree temperatures.  So it is what it is and I just sort of accept it.

Butch

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It's really not fun when the thing you're doing most during a round is waiting. Had this on Sunday, played 9 holes of an intended 18 and gave up as it took us over 3 hours! Turns out there was a Japanese society day playing and they were a combination of brutally awful and brutally slow. I didn't see them as I was so far in the back log but a guy I chatted to afterwards was telling me they were pretty much all complete novice hackers, yet were putting in so much effort into each shot you'd think it was the Ryder Cup. He timed one of them as he waited on the tee for one of them to tee off and it was 40 secs between him addressing the ball and then starting his backswing. Apparently he was just completely stick still for 40 secs, then topped it 40 yards. As I pointed out, he should have stood there for 5 minutes.
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On Friday I played with my friend as a twosome.

The twosome in front of us played two balls for every hole...  There was a huge backup behind us and they were completely ignorant of the delay they were causing.   Courses need marshals to make sure play like that doesn't happen.  Just incredibly rude to everybody else on the course.

why didnt you call the pro shop to have them send a marshal out to take care of the situation?  i have done that numerous times.

Colin P.

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I've only had one brutally slow round this year ... It was due to overbooking the course (Minebrook), advertising too many super cheap tee times. There were 2 groups on each tee box - least enjoyable 6 hours of golf ive ever played - talk about some pissed off unhappy golfers

John

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I've only had one brutally slow round this year ... It was due to overbooking the course (Minebrook), advertising too many super cheap tee times. There were 2 groups on each tee box - least enjoyable 6 hours of golf ive ever played - talk about some pissed off unhappy golfers

Well 6 hrs is just ludicrous! Hence why I gave up on my round Sunday, had visions of being out there 7 hours. When you're getting to a tee and there are a group on the green and 3 waiting it just destroys your concentration.

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Last time I got stuck behind an extremely slow group I first got super frustrated, then I accepted it, would hit my tee shot, and then drop 6 balls and practice my chipping until they cleared the next tee. It turned into a great round. Then on hole #6 I just went over to 14 and finished on the back 9. I was only playing 9 that day so got a couple free holes. I had an airtight defense if anyone were to give me crap about it. There was no one really behind me and the back 9 was empty. Why they didn't just start me on #10 I have no idea.

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The course indeed sets themselves up by having tight tee times. Note that I didn't say that I agree with them doing that as their expectation are a bit too lofty (and don't forget that loft means Lack Of F**ing Talent!) as to the ability of all the players, but with decent golfers knowing how to play and how to move along, it really shouldn't be an issue, even at 7 minutes. When one group slows down a bit on one hole, they could make up that time on the next few, but of course, bad (as in slow) players don't. They are oblivious to where they are in relation to the group ahead, and what they are doing, wasting copious amounts of time on things that are not golf.

My main point until now, across several posts, was simply that 7 minutes tee times does not equate to a 2 hours round anticipated by the course setting that tee time interval. My other point (somewhat reiterated just above) is that golfers can and should do better than what they are doing. It is not that hard to pay attention, be ready, hit and look at where the ball goes.  Then go find it. Then hit again.

The bold does not equate to lack of common f'ing sense or lack of f'ing consideration for others.

Slow players are not always less-than-talented golfers, and less-than-talented golfers are not always slow. They (poor players) may make up the majority of what you run into, but they are not the rule.

Jon

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Well 6 hrs is just ludicrous! Hence why I gave up on my round Sunday, had visions of being out there 7 hours. When you're getting to a tee and there are a group on the green and 3 waiting it just destroys your concentration.

That defiantly sucks. I usually quit if it approaches 5 hours. The longest round I completed in the last 18 months was 4:50 minutes @ Waldorf Astoria in Orlando. Probably would have left their early if the round wasn't so expensive.

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Most of you guys on here would probably list me as not very good, but I do have a sense of keeping up with play. Not all us crap players are slow; I think it comes down to the individual. One guy I play with is just in a world of his own, and unfortunately other players on the course simply don't come into his thinking! He is slow in life though too. I work with him and we'll play after work. He can literally take 3x as long to leave work, get changed, drive to the course, get his shit together and be on the first tee. It was getting so bad that one week we just teed off without him! He had to miss 2 holes to catch us up, even though we were a 3 ball and he was on his own. We see only a par 3 ahead at the start. Slow people make slow golfers!
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The bold does not equate to lack of common f'ing sense or lack of f'ing consideration for others. Slow players are not always less-than-talented golfers, and less-than-talented golfers are not always slow. They (poor players) may make up the majority of what you run into, but they are not the rule.

[quote name="Ongle" url="/t/84345/whats-the-rush/90#post_1200216"]Most of you guys on here would probably list me as not very good, but I do have a sense of keeping up with play. Not all us crap players are slow; I think it comes down to the individual. One guy I play with is just in a world of his own, and unfortunately other players on the course simply don't come into his thinking! He is slow in life though too. I work with him and we'll play after work. He can literally take 3x as long to leave work, get changed, drive to the course, get his shit together and be on the first tee. It was getting so bad that one week we just teed off without him! He had to miss 2 holes to catch us up, even though we were a 3 ball and he was on his own. We see only a par 3 ahead at the start. Slow people make slow golfers![/quote] Agree. Skill level has less to do with pace of play than awareness and common sense. I know plenty of 20++ hcp players who scoot right along, and even more single digit (and better) players that crawl.

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Most of you guys on here would probably list me as not very good, but I do have a sense of keeping up with play. Not all us crap players are slow; I think it comes down to the individual. One guy I play with is just in a world of his own, and unfortunately other players on the course simply don't come into his thinking! He is slow in life though too. I work with him and we'll play after work. He can literally take 3x as long to leave work, get changed, drive to the course, get his shit together and be on the first tee. It was getting so bad that one week we just teed off without him! He had to miss 2 holes to catch us up, even though we were a 3 ball and he was on his own. We see only a par 3 ahead at the start. Slow people make slow golfers!

I agree except I believe it is probably more like slow people who are self-absorbed or oblivious to their surroundings are slow golfers. Everyone here has a different "pace of play" in mind. If you either make a conscious effort to keep pace with the group in front of you and/or have no reservations of letting faster groups play through it would solve a larger % of pace issues. All it takes is one group with a sense of entitlement to back an entire course up.

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From my experience, bad golfers are usually very self aware of their slow play and rush to keep up.  Sometimes even just picking up on a hole if they are doing poorly enough.

The slowest golfers I have run into are the ones who hit a good shot, then re-hit the same shot to see if they can do better...  Then spend two minutes lining up the 20 foot putt...

Tony  


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One guy I play with is just in a world of his own, and unfortunately other players on the course simply don't come into his thinking! He is slow in life though too. I work with him and we'll play after work. He can literally take 3x as long to leave work, get changed, drive to the course, get his shit together and be on the first tee.

I hate this. One of my co-workers is like that. I constantly have to hurry him along, otherwise he'll stand on the tee yammering forever. He's a good guy, but man, no clue about etiquette.

I think it comes down to three types of players: those who are aware of pace of play and put forth the effort, those who are inexperienced or uneducated, and those who are aware it's a problem but just don't care about others. All we can do is try to educate those who are new to the game.

The slowest golfers I have run into are the ones who hit a good shot, then re-hit the same shot to see if they can do better..

I'm usually a pretty patient person when others are playing slowly, but I've been behind these guys and it's hard to take. There really is no excuse.

Jon

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From my experience, bad golfers are usually very self aware of their slow play and rush to keep up.  Sometimes even just picking up on a hole if they are doing poorly enough.

The slowest golfers I have run into are the ones who hit a good shot, then re-hit the same shot to see if they can do better...  Then spend two minutes lining up the 20 foot putt...

I don't know about that, I've seen foursomes of old woman and men who don't hit the ball more than 50 yards a shot and don't seem to care how long it takes them to finish.  They just keep hitting the ball down the fairway and putt everything out as if they are the only ones on the course.

I've also seen single digit handicappers playing for money that contemplated each shot like they were playing in the Masters.  Like the old people, they were oblivious to anyone else on the course.

I don't think there's a generalization that fits beyond some people are considerate and play with pace of play in mind and others that don't.

Joe Paradiso

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The bold does not equate to lack of common f'ing sense or lack of f'ing consideration for others.

Slow players are not always less-than-talented golfers, and less-than-talented golfers are not always slow. They (poor players) may make up the majority of what you run into, but they are not the rule.


I absolutely agree! The "loft" in question was a mere joke about the lofty goals of courses who pack the tee sheet to the max with short tee time intervals. I have seen plenty of good players who are slow and many poor ones who can keep up.

The worst is still a poor player who loses balls everywhere, searches for them forever and generally has no clue as to what to do to keep things moving, not even realizing that they are slow.  On the other hand, the good players who are slow tend to know it and not care, which is probably less "fixable" than the poor players not knowing, for whom a little education (the responsibility of better players playing along with them) tends to help.

Philippe

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Note: This thread is 2588 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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